In the interest of self-flagellation, thought I'd have another watch of the first half.

We kick off deep. In itself that's fine. But is our tactic to kick deep rather than contestable? Their bloke belts it back over halfway. Savea dithers over ruck ball, killing the momentum from a nice Roigard snipe. Then it's static ball and runners getting knocked over for a couple of phases, before we find space outside some pretty average English defence and Leicester loses the ball.
We win the ball from an English high kick, do not much then Roigard kicks long. Steward returns with another high kick, which for some reason Roigard is catching surrounded by Lord, S Barrett, and Jordan... Steward regathers. England waves of attack making great metres, into our 22 and Ford makes a terrible decision and kicks their attacking ball away when they should have scored. Goal-line drop out long, England return another high kick which BB drops, cleaned up by Carter, then BB pop-guns it to the 22. Poms win the lineout and attack competently, Lakai gets stranded taking nobody, de Groot slow to come across and cover, and they blow the try by dropping the ball with the line open in Proctor's cover tackle. Lakai good off the back and Roigard clears well from the resulting scrum.
Poms mess up their lineout, we lose some ground with our carries, then BB kicks aimlessly. Neither long nor contestable. They return and attack well, and Savea gets a turnover penalty to relieve the pressure. From that lineout we ruck and Roigard puts up a kick which is contestable and is not taken cleanly. Poms under pressure but they clear well from their line.
We attack well from the lineout, until Roigard has to join a ruck and BB playing halfback passes to nobody, well behind Newell. Parker cleans up well, Roigard snipes and we're back where we were. More attack, in which LF gives two bad passes, Proctor cleans up and kicks long, chases hard and gets the charge-down. BB kicks long and well into 22, and Poms mess their lineout up again giving us a scrum in the 22, and LF barrels over after a few phases. Missed conversion.
Ford kick-off out on the full. Roigard with the pinpoint 50-22 off the scrum. From the lineout we go wide and Jordan in space ignores his unmarked winger. Swing back the other way, Tupaea sees the space and Taylor scores. BB converts and we are undeservedly up 12-0. Pom defence looks fragile out wide.
From the kick-off Roigard a good contestable which we win back, then he immediately kicks long which they return. Barrett with numbers attempts something between a chip kick and a bomb for himself, which is claimed uncontested by Earl. Why? Poms reply with a kick which is contestable, which they win, then attempt another which is too deep and Jordan claims. From the mark he kicks long and the poms put up another contestable which they win, then grubber through to get a lineout 5m out. Steward off injured. Roigard clears well from the lineout.
The poms mess up their lineout again. Roigard puts up another reasonable contestable kick which they win and go wide quickly. Our defence is too slow to scramble, and we are fortunate to hold them up over the line (Roigard + Proctor). Rather than relieving the pressure, BB attempts a contestable goal-line drop out and with the next phase they are back in our 22. WTAF? When we kick off from halfway we go deep and uncontestable, when we do it from our line, we go short and contestable? Who is making these decisions?
Injury break, English scrum, Carter misses one-on-one badly, BB misses trying to cover, try.
Our kick off is again too deep to contest, and poms clear, then are penalised at the lineout. BB misses touch from the penalty and kicks it dead, scrum back. Jesus Christ.
They cross kick accurately and retain possession. Then contestable kick which they knock back but Roigard grabs and gives us great turnover ball and momentum. BB kicks it away - a planned chip kick for Savea. Seriously? Poms grab it and clear to near our 22. We lose the lineout, pom handling lets them down on attack. Roigard goes straight to Tupaea who skips Proctor to Carter in space; he chips and regathers but can't quite find support. Good play. Poms win the ruck but knock it on.
Attacking scrum. Roigard again straight to Tupaea who again throws a good skip pass putting Jordan and LF in space. Carter tries a pick and go and the other backs can't secure the ruck while Savea stands by watching. Poms clear and we muck around going nowhere for a while before getting a side-entry penalty 43m out straight in front. Decide to go for touch, BB doesn't want to kick (presumably injured already?) so Roigard takes it and misses touch. Poms clear.
A few rucks and BB puts up another aimless non-contestable kick. They kick long, we run it back and with Taylor nearly in touch lose the ball which they kick through. BB jogs back, and is consequently forced onto his left foot from our line when with a bit of urgency that didn't need to be the case. Pop-gun clearance to the 22. Poms finally win a lineout, couple of rucks and Ford hits the droppie.
Kick off secured easily, Poms put up a contestable which we don't even bother to contest? Poms swing back onto attack and Ford kicks the droppie. BB another uncontestable kick off and that's half time.

So what can you take from that?
We were disorganised receiving contested kicks, using the wrong player or even no player to catch them. Our attempts at contested kicks from Roigard were good, from Barrett were poor. Why have we not fixed this yet? Likewise our clearances from Roigard were good, from Barrett were poor. We also missed touch from two penalties, a basic error which seems to be happening most weeks.
England blew 2 tries and another very good attacking opportunity, and gifted us good possession from the lineout repeatedly, which we repeatedly threw away. If we aren't good enough to take advantage of that, we aren't good enough. We did find space on the outside, but in the middle very frequently our runners were getting the ball well behind the advantage line.
We play dumb rugby: we make poor decisions and can't execute basic kicking skills.

@Catogrande said in England Vs All Blacks:

We only had a simple game plan although we did execute that well.

In the contest that put them two steps ahead of the All Blacks.

@Tim said in England Vs All Blacks:

See if you can spot a loose forward in these pictures ... Savea stands way off the ruck and looks disinterested. Terrible openside. Absolutely shithouse selection

Because he only wants to carry the ball or pretend to be a five-eighth. He's the softest loose forward I've ever seen.

@antipodean said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Tim said in England Vs All Blacks:

See if you can spot a loose forward in these pictures ... Savea stands way off the ruck and looks disinterested. Terrible openside. Absolutely shithouse selection

Because he only wants to carry the ball or pretend to be a five-eighth. He's the softest loose forward I've ever seen.

We've got BB doing chip kicks for him (when he's not trying them himself from our line). Now admittedly I'm not privy to the training numbers, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say I reckon Jordan or Carter might have a bit more gas.

@antipodean said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Tim said in England Vs All Blacks:

See if you can spot a loose forward in these pictures ... Savea stands way off the ruck and looks disinterested. Terrible openside. Absolutely shithouse selection

Because he only wants to carry the ball or pretend to be a five-eighth. He's the softest loose forward I've ever seen.

but, but the leg drive!! beast mode!! And that one breakdown steal a game where he gets up looking staunch as fuck!! Amazing player.

The part of his game that fucks me off is he will often pick the worst possible time for a pick and go, killing opportunity, and often making no yards because he trips over the obvious obstacles that SHOULD have meant he didn't take it on. I am so over his state of play.

@mariner4life said in England Vs All Blacks:

@antipodean said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Tim said in England Vs All Blacks:

See if you can spot a loose forward in these pictures ... Savea stands way off the ruck and looks disinterested. Terrible openside. Absolutely shithouse selection

Because he only wants to carry the ball or pretend to be a five-eighth. He's the softest loose forward I've ever seen.

but, but the leg drive!! beast mode!! And that one breakdown steal a game where he gets up looking staunch as fuck!! Amazing player.

The part of his game that fucks me off is he will often pick the worst possible time for a pick and go, killing opportunity, and often making no yards because he trips over the obvious obstacles that SHOULD have meant he didn't take it on. I am so over his state of play.

100%. In the right situation - static ball where he can stay up and others can drive him - he can be an effective carrier, but more often than not he isn't and he kills quick ball.

The worst part of the decline in standards, I’m starting to not give a fuck anymore ,

That’s probably a lie I don’t care , but I convince myself what’s the point worrying about it , fuck it , move on and I do .

i care, i am just not surprised.

@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:

@mariner4life said in England Vs All Blacks:

@antipodean said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Tim said in England Vs All Blacks:

See if you can spot a loose forward in these pictures ... Savea stands way off the ruck and looks disinterested. Terrible openside. Absolutely shithouse selection

Because he only wants to carry the ball or pretend to be a five-eighth. He's the softest loose forward I've ever seen.

but, but the leg drive!! beast mode!! And that one breakdown steal a game where he gets up looking staunch as fuck!! Amazing player.

The part of his game that fucks me off is he will often pick the worst possible time for a pick and go, killing opportunity, and often making no yards because he trips over the obvious obstacles that SHOULD have meant he didn't take it on. I am so over his state of play.

100%. In the right situation - static ball where he can stay up and others can drive him - he can be an effective carrier, but more often than not he isn't and he kills quick ball.

because he, like Beauden, just does shit and no one else knows what is going on and therefore are reactive rather than proactive.

@mariner4life said in England Vs All Blacks:

@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:

@mariner4life said in England Vs All Blacks:

@antipodean said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Tim said in England Vs All Blacks:

See if you can spot a loose forward in these pictures ... Savea stands way off the ruck and looks disinterested. Terrible openside. Absolutely shithouse selection

Because he only wants to carry the ball or pretend to be a five-eighth. He's the softest loose forward I've ever seen.

but, but the leg drive!! beast mode!! And that one breakdown steal a game where he gets up looking staunch as fuck!! Amazing player.

The part of his game that fucks me off is he will often pick the worst possible time for a pick and go, killing opportunity, and often making no yards because he trips over the obvious obstacles that SHOULD have meant he didn't take it on. I am so over his state of play.

100%. In the right situation - static ball where he can stay up and others can drive him - he can be an effective carrier, but more often than not he isn't and he kills quick ball.

because he, like Beauden, just does shit and no one else knows what is going on and therefore are reactive rather than proactive.

If that's what senior leadership looks like, I reckon we ditch it.

I reckon you put Hoskin Satutu on the bench for England and they would have put another 2 tries on us in that second half..

@mariner4life said in England Vs All Blacks:

@antipodean said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Tim said in England Vs All Blacks:

See if you can spot a loose forward in these pictures ... Savea stands way off the ruck and looks disinterested. Terrible openside. Absolutely shithouse selection

Because he only wants to carry the ball or pretend to be a five-eighth. He's the softest loose forward I've ever seen.

but, but the leg drive!! beast mode!! And that one breakdown steal a game where he gets up looking staunch as fuck!! Amazing player.

The part of his game that fucks me off is he will often pick the worst possible time for a pick and go, killing opportunity, and often making no yards because he trips over the obvious obstacles that SHOULD have meant he didn't take it on. I am so over his state of play.

we've seen the early signs for years, i remember talking about games where he would make multiple breaks....but they were so unexpected he almost immediately got isloted and lost it to a turn over or at best got an offload away....to someone who go isolated....hes often been the posterboy for the "champion team beats a team of champions" debate

and i do get the idea that the others should be backing up his game changing plays...but after the 50th time we didn;t...maybe we try somehing else

@Dodge

I think the issue is the cards not issued. We can debate whether Taylor's was merited or not but it set a threshold. For example, I forget exactly when in the second half on the English left wing an English player held on cynically. Sanction pen only. It was an astonishing decision.

@DaGrubster said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Tim said in England Vs All Blacks:

@African-Monkey Yep, absolutely. Was allowed side entry to rucks at will. Absolutely will get penalised for that in test rugby.

Savea will play the same way no matter what jersey is on his back.

He shoukd have stayed at 8 as we need perpetual motion in an openside. Not a player looking for his moments and watching rucks.

Beer suited to the bench now and get Paps or Lakai as our 7.

Ironically Razor would have been better being Crusader biased and picking Tom Christie for 7 than either of Savea or Kirifi. He would have wore greater initial criticism but at least the All Blacks would have a tackling machine who hits rucks at 7.

I just read Robertson's interview post match with NZ media. He spoke about the squad 'caring' about the results and they are good men, they know what needs to be done but the issue is in the execution. I didn't see anywhere that he took any responsibility which is a worry. I think he's out of his depth and I don't have any faith in him being able to pull things together before the RWC. We have 18 months- bring in someone fresh with experience coaching at the international level - Jamie Joseph? Joe?

@allblackfan2 Robertson says whatever sounds good inside his head at the time. Doesn’t matter if it’s a contradiction to something he’s said or done previously. Doesn’t matter if it’s even makes sense. At least some of the players may very well care about the results but they’d do well to care while the game’s still being played and put a bit more effort in, i.e. not walk on defence. And the coach would do well to create an environment where that type of thing is unacceptable and the players are held to account if it ever does, rather than promoting them to captain the next week.

@tubbyj said in England Vs All Blacks:

@DaGrubster said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Tim said in England Vs All Blacks:

@African-Monkey Yep, absolutely. Was allowed side entry to rucks at will. Absolutely will get penalised for that in test rugby.

Savea will play the same way no matter what jersey is on his back.

He shoukd have stayed at 8 as we need perpetual motion in an openside. Not a player looking for his moments and watching rucks.

Beer suited to the bench now and get Paps or Lakai as our 7.

Ironically Razor would have been better being Crusader biased and picking Tom Christie for 7 than either of Savea or Kirifi. He would have wore greater initial criticism but at least the All Blacks would have a tackling machine who hits rucks at 7.

Nailed it.

And frankly you just nailed the problem with the All Blacks - it's not an amalgamation of the specialists and overachievers in NZ rugby. It's not the best of the best.

The All blacks is just the clique of cool and popular kids who have social media game. It's a circle jerk built around Ardie Saveas cult of personality more than anything else.

Christie set a standard of excellence and overachievement at the 7 position for the Crusaders and Canterbury this year that is what the All Black branding purports to be but isn't because it's all about if your face fits.

I can see why coaches and players bail out because it's not a culture of meritocracy or intellectual innovation it's a groupthink enterprise.

@tubbyj said in England Vs All Blacks:

@DaGrubster said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Tim said in England Vs All Blacks:

@African-Monkey Yep, absolutely. Was allowed side entry to rucks at will. Absolutely will get penalised for that in test rugby.

Savea will play the same way no matter what jersey is on his back.

He shoukd have stayed at 8 as we need perpetual motion in an openside. Not a player looking for his moments and watching rucks.

Beer suited to the bench now and get Paps or Lakai as our 7.

Ironically Razor would have been better being Crusader biased and picking Tom Christie for 7 than either of Savea or Kirifi. He would have wore greater initial criticism but at least the All Blacks would have a tackling machine who hits rucks at 7.

Agree. CLW at number 8 and take a punt on Gardiner at 6.

Hotham at 9, and new blood like Reihana at 1st 5.

I would’ve gone with some experience at 12 like Havili and an inform Ennor at centre. Open it up for Fainga’anuku and Jordan on the wings. T. Chief at fullback.

@ACT-Crusader said in England Vs All Blacks:

@tubbyj said in England Vs All Blacks:

@DaGrubster said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Tim said in England Vs All Blacks:

@African-Monkey Yep, absolutely. Was allowed side entry to rucks at will. Absolutely will get penalised for that in test rugby.

Savea will play the same way no matter what jersey is on his back.

He shoukd have stayed at 8 as we need perpetual motion in an openside. Not a player looking for his moments and watching rucks.

Beer suited to the bench now and get Paps or Lakai as our 7.

Ironically Razor would have been better being Crusader biased and picking Tom Christie for 7 than either of Savea or Kirifi. He would have wore greater initial criticism but at least the All Blacks would have a tackling machine who hits rucks at 7.

Agree. CLW at number 8 and take a punt on Gardiner at 6.

Hotham at 9, and new blood like Reihana at 1st 5.

I would’ve gone with some experience at 12 like Havili and an inform Ennor at centre. Open it up for Fainga’anuku and Jordan on the wings. T. Chief at fullback.

Covers 15 and 10 as well.

@ACT-Crusader said in England Vs All Blacks:

@tubbyj said in England Vs All Blacks:

@DaGrubster said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Tim said in England Vs All Blacks:

@African-Monkey Yep, absolutely. Was allowed side entry to rucks at will. Absolutely will get penalised for that in test rugby.

Savea will play the same way no matter what jersey is on his back.

He shoukd have stayed at 8 as we need perpetual motion in an openside. Not a player looking for his moments and watching rucks.

Beer suited to the bench now and get Paps or Lakai as our 7.

Ironically Razor would have been better being Crusader biased and picking Tom Christie for 7 than either of Savea or Kirifi. He would have wore greater initial criticism but at least the All Blacks would have a tackling machine who hits rucks at 7.

Agree. CLW at number 8 and take a punt on Gardiner at 6.

Hotham at 9, and new blood like Reihana at 1st 5.

I would’ve gone with some experience at 12 like Havili and an inform Ennor at centre. Open it up for Fainga’anuku and Jordan on the wings. T. Chief at fullback.

Coward.

Oh, that reminds me.... Didn't get a chance to watch it for a second time but I'm relatively certain that Razor made a few substitutions when defending a set piece.

If this isn't a figment of my imagination it also happened in one of the earlier test matches, possibly in Argentina.

Not sure how exacting coaches can be when it comes to timing these things ) especially since sometimes they are injury enforced) but it's less than ideal when the first action a player has in a match is defending a set piece in their 22.

Kudos to Lakai for at least getting out to attempt to charge down Ford on both those drop goals.

I noticed on the second the open side was hanging out in midfield, a safe distance from the ruck.

@nonpartizan well to be fair, you're going to have to break the laws to sub in open play, might as well wait until Rassie tries it at least.

Once you've requested the sub I imagine you can get unlucky when it happens too.

@Bones said in England Vs All Blacks:

@nonpartizan well to be fair, you're going to have to break the laws to sub in open play, might as well wait until Rassie tries it at least.

Once you've requested the sub I imagine you can get unlucky when it happens too.

Yeah, I just looked at the highlights it was McKenzie on for Barrett defending the lineout after the 50:22...... England scored - 54 mins.

I think they would have scored anyway so it's immaterial I guess but I feel like multiple times this season they have subbed when defending a set piece in the 22. Maybe it's just bad luck.

@nonpartizan feeds the coaching narrative on why they select how they select though.

@Bones said in England Vs All Blacks:

@nonpartizan well to be fair, you're going to have to break the laws to sub in open play, might as well wait until Rassie tries it at least.

Once you've requested the sub I imagine you can get unlucky when it happens too.

Upvote for the innovative post.

But surely you can say, nah, let's wait a bit?

@booboo said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Bones said in England Vs All Blacks:

@nonpartizan well to be fair, you're going to have to break the laws to sub in open play, might as well wait until Rassie tries it at least.

Once you've requested the sub I imagine you can get unlucky when it happens too.

Upvote for the innovative post.

But surely you can say, nah, let's wait a bit?

No idea to be honest, but I imagine it works that you say "ok let's get guy X on", then it happens next stoppage. Figure it's probably not that easy to hit the pause button at the last second or tell the officials you've changed your mind as X is running on?

Scott Hansen on the Breakdown, fuck he's a gobshite. Like Goldie and Mils, my patience has run out. Goldie and Mils are putting the coaches under the spotlight.

Goldie on fire, calling out NZR for their commerce over on field performance

I don't generally watch or like The Breakdown. But this might be the best episode ever. Mils and Goldie are putting the boot into Razor and his group, NZR and the players. Their frustration and anger is palpable

@tubbyj said in England Vs All Blacks:

I reckon you put Hoskin Satutu on the bench for England and they would have put another 2 tries on us in that second half..

Well, he wouldn't lack for motivation...

@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:

I don't generally watch or like The Breakdown. But this might be the best episode ever. Mils and Goldie are putting the boot into Razor and his group, NZR and the players. Their frustration and anger is palpable

Is Marshall on that? Isn't he pals with Razor?

@nostrildamus said in England Vs All Blacks:

@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:

I don't generally watch or like The Breakdown. But this might be the best episode ever. Mils and Goldie are putting the boot into Razor and his group, NZR and the players. Their frustration and anger is palpable

Is Marshall on that? Isn't he pals with Razor?

No. It's Mils, Goldie and Beaver. Mils and Goldie are fucken pissed

@MN5 said in England Vs All Blacks:

I know the result was tough to take but drinking on a TV show is very unprofessional.

I loved the Dave Allen Show. Maybe before your time, but his delivery and timing were spot on.

The takeaways?

1. Razor has had a comfortable ride compared to most AB coaches in his position. Our patience is running out We are finding out that what works at SR level doesn't work at test level
2. NZR have a lot to answer for, placing commerce over on field success
3. NZR have let quality coaches and the IP that they possess leave taking it all with them to share with the world. A lot of these coaches don't want a bar of NZR now
4. We seem badly prepared and unable to execute in the pressure moments

The one thing that would have helped the Breakdowns cause would have been some analysis.

Whilst their points were valid sometimes this type of dialogue can just be dismissed as emotional and reactive on the back.of a loss.

They need to put together a highlights reel that exposes the flaws in the coaching. Just pick 5 plays, break them down frame by frame and really put the coaching staff under the microscope. It could be maul defence, BB kicking, the soak tackles..... Just pick a theme and pose the equation - why does this never improve?

Anyone seen the NZR contract with Razor? I assume it is hard to do anything before 2027RWC?

I enjoyed this weeks Breakdown show... Goldie & Mils were great. Good to hear some truths instead of bullshit.

Kirsty picks out stupid questions though. We don't need to hear rubbish about opening the eligibility laws every time we lose.

@nonpartizan Fair point. The discussion was good, and warranted, but they didn’t show much action from the game at all when there were some really obvious things that could have been included.