@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:

@mariner4life said in England Vs All Blacks:

@antipodean said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Tim said in England Vs All Blacks:

See if you can spot a loose forward in these pictures ... Savea stands way off the ruck and looks disinterested. Terrible openside. Absolutely shithouse selection

Because he only wants to carry the ball or pretend to be a five-eighth. He's the softest loose forward I've ever seen.

but, but the leg drive!! beast mode!! And that one breakdown steal a game where he gets up looking staunch as fuck!! Amazing player.

The part of his game that fucks me off is he will often pick the worst possible time for a pick and go, killing opportunity, and often making no yards because he trips over the obvious obstacles that SHOULD have meant he didn't take it on. I am so over his state of play.

100%. In the right situation - static ball where he can stay up and others can drive him - he can be an effective carrier, but more often than not he isn't and he kills quick ball.

because he, like Beauden, just does shit and no one else knows what is going on and therefore are reactive rather than proactive.

@mariner4life said in England Vs All Blacks:

@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:

@mariner4life said in England Vs All Blacks:

@antipodean said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Tim said in England Vs All Blacks:

See if you can spot a loose forward in these pictures ... Savea stands way off the ruck and looks disinterested. Terrible openside. Absolutely shithouse selection

Because he only wants to carry the ball or pretend to be a five-eighth. He's the softest loose forward I've ever seen.

but, but the leg drive!! beast mode!! And that one breakdown steal a game where he gets up looking staunch as fuck!! Amazing player.

The part of his game that fucks me off is he will often pick the worst possible time for a pick and go, killing opportunity, and often making no yards because he trips over the obvious obstacles that SHOULD have meant he didn't take it on. I am so over his state of play.

100%. In the right situation - static ball where he can stay up and others can drive him - he can be an effective carrier, but more often than not he isn't and he kills quick ball.

because he, like Beauden, just does shit and no one else knows what is going on and therefore are reactive rather than proactive.

If that's what senior leadership looks like, I reckon we ditch it.

I reckon you put Hoskin Satutu on the bench for England and they would have put another 2 tries on us in that second half..

@mariner4life said in England Vs All Blacks:

@antipodean said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Tim said in England Vs All Blacks:

See if you can spot a loose forward in these pictures ... Savea stands way off the ruck and looks disinterested. Terrible openside. Absolutely shithouse selection

Because he only wants to carry the ball or pretend to be a five-eighth. He's the softest loose forward I've ever seen.

but, but the leg drive!! beast mode!! And that one breakdown steal a game where he gets up looking staunch as fuck!! Amazing player.

The part of his game that fucks me off is he will often pick the worst possible time for a pick and go, killing opportunity, and often making no yards because he trips over the obvious obstacles that SHOULD have meant he didn't take it on. I am so over his state of play.

we've seen the early signs for years, i remember talking about games where he would make multiple breaks....but they were so unexpected he almost immediately got isloted and lost it to a turn over or at best got an offload away....to someone who go isolated....hes often been the posterboy for the "champion team beats a team of champions" debate

and i do get the idea that the others should be backing up his game changing plays...but after the 50th time we didn;t...maybe we try somehing else

@Dodge

I think the issue is the cards not issued. We can debate whether Taylor's was merited or not but it set a threshold. For example, I forget exactly when in the second half on the English left wing an English player held on cynically. Sanction pen only. It was an astonishing decision.

@DaGrubster said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Tim said in England Vs All Blacks:

@African-Monkey Yep, absolutely. Was allowed side entry to rucks at will. Absolutely will get penalised for that in test rugby.

Savea will play the same way no matter what jersey is on his back.

He shoukd have stayed at 8 as we need perpetual motion in an openside. Not a player looking for his moments and watching rucks.

Beer suited to the bench now and get Paps or Lakai as our 7.

Ironically Razor would have been better being Crusader biased and picking Tom Christie for 7 than either of Savea or Kirifi. He would have wore greater initial criticism but at least the All Blacks would have a tackling machine who hits rucks at 7.

I just read Robertson's interview post match with NZ media. He spoke about the squad 'caring' about the results and they are good men, they know what needs to be done but the issue is in the execution. I didn't see anywhere that he took any responsibility which is a worry. I think he's out of his depth and I don't have any faith in him being able to pull things together before the RWC. We have 18 months- bring in someone fresh with experience coaching at the international level - Jamie Joseph? Joe?

@allblackfan2 Robertson says whatever sounds good inside his head at the time. Doesn’t matter if it’s a contradiction to something he’s said or done previously. Doesn’t matter if it’s even makes sense. At least some of the players may very well care about the results but they’d do well to care while the game’s still being played and put a bit more effort in, i.e. not walk on defence. And the coach would do well to create an environment where that type of thing is unacceptable and the players are held to account if it ever does, rather than promoting them to captain the next week.

@tubbyj said in England Vs All Blacks:

@DaGrubster said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Tim said in England Vs All Blacks:

@African-Monkey Yep, absolutely. Was allowed side entry to rucks at will. Absolutely will get penalised for that in test rugby.

Savea will play the same way no matter what jersey is on his back.

He shoukd have stayed at 8 as we need perpetual motion in an openside. Not a player looking for his moments and watching rucks.

Beer suited to the bench now and get Paps or Lakai as our 7.

Ironically Razor would have been better being Crusader biased and picking Tom Christie for 7 than either of Savea or Kirifi. He would have wore greater initial criticism but at least the All Blacks would have a tackling machine who hits rucks at 7.

Nailed it.

And frankly you just nailed the problem with the All Blacks - it's not an amalgamation of the specialists and overachievers in NZ rugby. It's not the best of the best.

The All blacks is just the clique of cool and popular kids who have social media game. It's a circle jerk built around Ardie Saveas cult of personality more than anything else.

Christie set a standard of excellence and overachievement at the 7 position for the Crusaders and Canterbury this year that is what the All Black branding purports to be but isn't because it's all about if your face fits.

I can see why coaches and players bail out because it's not a culture of meritocracy or intellectual innovation it's a groupthink enterprise.

@tubbyj said in England Vs All Blacks:

@DaGrubster said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Tim said in England Vs All Blacks:

@African-Monkey Yep, absolutely. Was allowed side entry to rucks at will. Absolutely will get penalised for that in test rugby.

Savea will play the same way no matter what jersey is on his back.

He shoukd have stayed at 8 as we need perpetual motion in an openside. Not a player looking for his moments and watching rucks.

Beer suited to the bench now and get Paps or Lakai as our 7.

Ironically Razor would have been better being Crusader biased and picking Tom Christie for 7 than either of Savea or Kirifi. He would have wore greater initial criticism but at least the All Blacks would have a tackling machine who hits rucks at 7.

Agree. CLW at number 8 and take a punt on Gardiner at 6.

Hotham at 9, and new blood like Reihana at 1st 5.

I would’ve gone with some experience at 12 like Havili and an inform Ennor at centre. Open it up for Fainga’anuku and Jordan on the wings. T. Chief at fullback.

@ACT-Crusader said in England Vs All Blacks:

@tubbyj said in England Vs All Blacks:

@DaGrubster said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Tim said in England Vs All Blacks:

@African-Monkey Yep, absolutely. Was allowed side entry to rucks at will. Absolutely will get penalised for that in test rugby.

Savea will play the same way no matter what jersey is on his back.

He shoukd have stayed at 8 as we need perpetual motion in an openside. Not a player looking for his moments and watching rucks.

Beer suited to the bench now and get Paps or Lakai as our 7.

Ironically Razor would have been better being Crusader biased and picking Tom Christie for 7 than either of Savea or Kirifi. He would have wore greater initial criticism but at least the All Blacks would have a tackling machine who hits rucks at 7.

Agree. CLW at number 8 and take a punt on Gardiner at 6.

Hotham at 9, and new blood like Reihana at 1st 5.

I would’ve gone with some experience at 12 like Havili and an inform Ennor at centre. Open it up for Fainga’anuku and Jordan on the wings. T. Chief at fullback.

Covers 15 and 10 as well.

@ACT-Crusader said in England Vs All Blacks:

@tubbyj said in England Vs All Blacks:

@DaGrubster said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Tim said in England Vs All Blacks:

@African-Monkey Yep, absolutely. Was allowed side entry to rucks at will. Absolutely will get penalised for that in test rugby.

Savea will play the same way no matter what jersey is on his back.

He shoukd have stayed at 8 as we need perpetual motion in an openside. Not a player looking for his moments and watching rucks.

Beer suited to the bench now and get Paps or Lakai as our 7.

Ironically Razor would have been better being Crusader biased and picking Tom Christie for 7 than either of Savea or Kirifi. He would have wore greater initial criticism but at least the All Blacks would have a tackling machine who hits rucks at 7.

Agree. CLW at number 8 and take a punt on Gardiner at 6.

Hotham at 9, and new blood like Reihana at 1st 5.

I would’ve gone with some experience at 12 like Havili and an inform Ennor at centre. Open it up for Fainga’anuku and Jordan on the wings. T. Chief at fullback.

Coward.

Oh, that reminds me.... Didn't get a chance to watch it for a second time but I'm relatively certain that Razor made a few substitutions when defending a set piece.

If this isn't a figment of my imagination it also happened in one of the earlier test matches, possibly in Argentina.

Not sure how exacting coaches can be when it comes to timing these things ) especially since sometimes they are injury enforced) but it's less than ideal when the first action a player has in a match is defending a set piece in their 22.

Kudos to Lakai for at least getting out to attempt to charge down Ford on both those drop goals.

I noticed on the second the open side was hanging out in midfield, a safe distance from the ruck.

@nonpartizan well to be fair, you're going to have to break the laws to sub in open play, might as well wait until Rassie tries it at least.

Once you've requested the sub I imagine you can get unlucky when it happens too.

@Bones said in England Vs All Blacks:

@nonpartizan well to be fair, you're going to have to break the laws to sub in open play, might as well wait until Rassie tries it at least.

Once you've requested the sub I imagine you can get unlucky when it happens too.

Yeah, I just looked at the highlights it was McKenzie on for Barrett defending the lineout after the 50:22...... England scored - 54 mins.

I think they would have scored anyway so it's immaterial I guess but I feel like multiple times this season they have subbed when defending a set piece in the 22. Maybe it's just bad luck.

@nonpartizan feeds the coaching narrative on why they select how they select though.

@Bones said in England Vs All Blacks:

@nonpartizan well to be fair, you're going to have to break the laws to sub in open play, might as well wait until Rassie tries it at least.

Once you've requested the sub I imagine you can get unlucky when it happens too.

Upvote for the innovative post.

But surely you can say, nah, let's wait a bit?

@booboo said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Bones said in England Vs All Blacks:

@nonpartizan well to be fair, you're going to have to break the laws to sub in open play, might as well wait until Rassie tries it at least.

Once you've requested the sub I imagine you can get unlucky when it happens too.

Upvote for the innovative post.

But surely you can say, nah, let's wait a bit?

No idea to be honest, but I imagine it works that you say "ok let's get guy X on", then it happens next stoppage. Figure it's probably not that easy to hit the pause button at the last second or tell the officials you've changed your mind as X is running on?

Scott Hansen on the Breakdown, fuck he's a gobshite. Like Goldie and Mils, my patience has run out. Goldie and Mils are putting the coaches under the spotlight.

Goldie on fire, calling out NZR for their commerce over on field performance

I don't generally watch or like The Breakdown. But this might be the best episode ever. Mils and Goldie are putting the boot into Razor and his group, NZR and the players. Their frustration and anger is palpable

@tubbyj said in England Vs All Blacks:

I reckon you put Hoskin Satutu on the bench for England and they would have put another 2 tries on us in that second half..

Well, he wouldn't lack for motivation...

@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:

I don't generally watch or like The Breakdown. But this might be the best episode ever. Mils and Goldie are putting the boot into Razor and his group, NZR and the players. Their frustration and anger is palpable

Is Marshall on that? Isn't he pals with Razor?

@nostrildamus said in England Vs All Blacks:

@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:

I don't generally watch or like The Breakdown. But this might be the best episode ever. Mils and Goldie are putting the boot into Razor and his group, NZR and the players. Their frustration and anger is palpable

Is Marshall on that? Isn't he pals with Razor?

No. It's Mils, Goldie and Beaver. Mils and Goldie are fucken pissed

@MN5 said in England Vs All Blacks:

I know the result was tough to take but drinking on a TV show is very unprofessional.

I loved the Dave Allen Show. Maybe before your time, but his delivery and timing were spot on.

The takeaways?

1. Razor has had a comfortable ride compared to most AB coaches in his position. Our patience is running out We are finding out that what works at SR level doesn't work at test level
2. NZR have a lot to answer for, placing commerce over on field success
3. NZR have let quality coaches and the IP that they possess leave taking it all with them to share with the world. A lot of these coaches don't want a bar of NZR now
4. We seem badly prepared and unable to execute in the pressure moments

The one thing that would have helped the Breakdowns cause would have been some analysis.

Whilst their points were valid sometimes this type of dialogue can just be dismissed as emotional and reactive on the back.of a loss.

They need to put together a highlights reel that exposes the flaws in the coaching. Just pick 5 plays, break them down frame by frame and really put the coaching staff under the microscope. It could be maul defence, BB kicking, the soak tackles..... Just pick a theme and pose the equation - why does this never improve?

Anyone seen the NZR contract with Razor? I assume it is hard to do anything before 2027RWC?

I enjoyed this weeks Breakdown show... Goldie & Mils were great. Good to hear some truths instead of bullshit.

Kirsty picks out stupid questions though. We don't need to hear rubbish about opening the eligibility laws every time we lose.

@nonpartizan Fair point. The discussion was good, and warranted, but they didn’t show much action from the game at all when there were some really obvious things that could have been included.

@nostrildamus said in England Vs All Blacks:

@tubbyj said in England Vs All Blacks:

I reckon you put Hoskin Satutu on the bench for England and they would have put another 2 tries on us in that second half..

Well, he wouldn't lack for motivation...

Probably feels like he's going to be joining a superior team as well...

@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:

Probably feels like he's going to be joining a superior team as well...

Ooh and I thought I was a little bit bitter!

@nostrildamus said in England Vs All Blacks:

@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:

Probably feels like he's going to be joining a superior team as well...

Ooh and I thought I was a little bit bitter!

Hoskins says look at the scoreboard

33-19

@hikastags said in England Vs All Blacks:

I enjoyed this weeks Breakdown show... Goldie & Mils were great. Good to hear some truths instead of bullshit.

Kirsty picks out stupid questions though. We don't need to hear rubbish about opening the eligibility laws every time we lose.

Yeah that question is annoying because its not grounded in reality. There aren't tons of players playing outside NZ that would improve the team more than just having a competent and thorough coaching set up. Secondly other countries have a lot of conflict between club and country over access to players that undermines the national team.

To me it's a total red herring.

its been fun to watch South African twitter blow up since Saturday, they seem furious that England have won 10 in a row and think they're making progress. I've seen people write off this team because they've only won against the big teams at home, ignoring the two games in Argentina. We only just beat France and Scotland, australia and NZ are shit so it doesn't count etc etc

I don't think any England fan thinks we're as good as South Africa, but it makes a pleasant change to be winning. Nice to be the focus of SA ire again.

@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:

@nostrildamus said in England Vs All Blacks:

@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:

Probably feels like he's going to be joining a superior team as well...

Ooh and I thought I was a little bit bitter!

Hoskins says look at the scoreboard

33-19

He good enough to break into the England loose forward group?

@booboo said in England Vs All Blacks:

@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:

@nostrildamus said in England Vs All Blacks:

@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:

Probably feels like he's going to be joining a superior team as well...

Ooh and I thought I was a little bit bitter!

Hoskins says look at the scoreboard

33-19

He good enough to break into the England loose forward group?

No

@Dodge said in England Vs All Blacks:

South African twitter

That was your mistake really