Kudos to Lakai for at least getting out to attempt to charge down Ford on both those drop goals.
I noticed on the second the open side was hanging out in midfield, a safe distance from the ruck.
England
Match thread
All Blacks
@nonpartizan well to be fair, you're going to have to break the laws to sub in open play, might as well wait until Rassie tries it at least.
Once you've requested the sub I imagine you can get unlucky when it happens too.
@Bones said in England Vs All Blacks:
@nonpartizan well to be fair, you're going to have to break the laws to sub in open play, might as well wait until Rassie tries it at least.
Once you've requested the sub I imagine you can get unlucky when it happens too.
Yeah, I just looked at the highlights it was McKenzie on for Barrett defending the lineout after the 50:22...... England scored - 54 mins.
I think they would have scored anyway so it's immaterial I guess but I feel like multiple times this season they have subbed when defending a set piece in the 22. Maybe it's just bad luck.
@nonpartizan feeds the coaching narrative on why they select how they select though.
@Bones said in England Vs All Blacks:
@nonpartizan well to be fair, you're going to have to break the laws to sub in open play, might as well wait until Rassie tries it at least.
Once you've requested the sub I imagine you can get unlucky when it happens too.
Upvote for the innovative post.
But surely you can say, nah, let's wait a bit?
@booboo said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Bones said in England Vs All Blacks:
@nonpartizan well to be fair, you're going to have to break the laws to sub in open play, might as well wait until Rassie tries it at least.
Once you've requested the sub I imagine you can get unlucky when it happens too.
Upvote for the innovative post.
But surely you can say, nah, let's wait a bit?
No idea to be honest, but I imagine it works that you say "ok let's get guy X on", then it happens next stoppage. Figure it's probably not that easy to hit the pause button at the last second or tell the officials you've changed your mind as X is running on?
Scott Hansen on the Breakdown, fuck he's a gobshite. Like Goldie and Mils, my patience has run out. Goldie and Mils are putting the coaches under the spotlight.
Goldie on fire, calling out NZR for their commerce over on field performance
I don't generally watch or like The Breakdown. But this might be the best episode ever. Mils and Goldie are putting the boot into Razor and his group, NZR and the players. Their frustration and anger is palpable
@tubbyj said in England Vs All Blacks:
I reckon you put Hoskin Satutu on the bench for England and they would have put another 2 tries on us in that second half..
Well, he wouldn't lack for motivation...
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
I don't generally watch or like The Breakdown. But this might be the best episode ever. Mils and Goldie are putting the boot into Razor and his group, NZR and the players. Their frustration and anger is palpable
Is Marshall on that? Isn't he pals with Razor?
@nostrildamus said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
I don't generally watch or like The Breakdown. But this might be the best episode ever. Mils and Goldie are putting the boot into Razor and his group, NZR and the players. Their frustration and anger is palpable
Is Marshall on that? Isn't he pals with Razor?
No. It's Mils, Goldie and Beaver. Mils and Goldie are fucken pissed
@MN5 said in England Vs All Blacks:
I know the result was tough to take but drinking on a TV show is very unprofessional.
I loved the Dave Allen Show. Maybe before your time, but his delivery and timing were spot on.
The takeaways?
- Razor has had a comfortable ride compared to most AB coaches in his position. Our patience is running out We are finding out that what works at SR level doesn't work at test level
- NZR have a lot to answer for, placing commerce over on field success
- NZR have let quality coaches and the IP that they possess leave taking it all with them to share with the world. A lot of these coaches don't want a bar of NZR now
- We seem badly prepared and unable to execute in the pressure moments
The one thing that would have helped the Breakdowns cause would have been some analysis.
Whilst their points were valid sometimes this type of dialogue can just be dismissed as emotional and reactive on the back.of a loss.
They need to put together a highlights reel that exposes the flaws in the coaching. Just pick 5 plays, break them down frame by frame and really put the coaching staff under the microscope. It could be maul defence, BB kicking, the soak tackles..... Just pick a theme and pose the equation - why does this never improve?
Anyone seen the NZR contract with Razor? I assume it is hard to do anything before 2027RWC?
@nonpartizan Fair point. The discussion was good, and warranted, but they didn’t show much action from the game at all when there were some really obvious things that could have been included.
@nostrildamus said in England Vs All Blacks:
@tubbyj said in England Vs All Blacks:
I reckon you put Hoskin Satutu on the bench for England and they would have put another 2 tries on us in that second half..
Well, he wouldn't lack for motivation...
Probably feels like he's going to be joining a superior team as well...
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
Probably feels like he's going to be joining a superior team as well...
Ooh and I thought I was a little bit bitter!
@nostrildamus said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
Probably feels like he's going to be joining a superior team as well...
Ooh and I thought I was a little bit bitter!
Hoskins says look at the scoreboard
33-19
@hikastags said in England Vs All Blacks:
I enjoyed this weeks Breakdown show... Goldie & Mils were great. Good to hear some truths instead of bullshit.
Kirsty picks out stupid questions though. We don't need to hear rubbish about opening the eligibility laws every time we lose.
Yeah that question is annoying because its not grounded in reality. There aren't tons of players playing outside NZ that would improve the team more than just having a competent and thorough coaching set up. Secondly other countries have a lot of conflict between club and country over access to players that undermines the national team.
To me it's a total red herring.
its been fun to watch South African twitter blow up since Saturday, they seem furious that England have won 10 in a row and think they're making progress. I've seen people write off this team because they've only won against the big teams at home, ignoring the two games in Argentina. We only just beat France and Scotland, australia and NZ are shit so it doesn't count etc etc
I don't think any England fan thinks we're as good as South Africa, but it makes a pleasant change to be winning. Nice to be the focus of SA ire again.
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
@nostrildamus said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
Probably feels like he's going to be joining a superior team as well...
Ooh and I thought I was a little bit bitter!
Hoskins says look at the scoreboard
33-19
He good enough to break into the England loose forward group?
@booboo said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
@nostrildamus said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
Probably feels like he's going to be joining a superior team as well...
Ooh and I thought I was a little bit bitter!
Hoskins says look at the scoreboard
33-19
He good enough to break into the England loose forward group?
No
@booboo said in England Vs All Blacks:
33-19
He good enough to break into the England loose forward group?
This was discussed here a few months ago and some weren't convinced he would be. If I was coach of England I'd be tempted to select and play him against the ABs though. Even if just for psychological reasons 
@booboo said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
@nostrildamus said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
Probably feels like he's going to be joining a superior team as well...
Ooh and I thought I was a little bit bitter!
Hoskins says look at the scoreboard
33-19
He good enough to break into the England loose forward group?
If you believe MSM Borthwick wants him for his team playing No 8
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
If you believe MSM Borthwick wants him for his team playing No 8
He's also had major shoulder surgery, hasn't he? Might not be the same player.
@booboo said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Dodge said in England Vs All Blacks:
South African twitter
That was your mistake really
I didn't even know they had a Twitter, unless we're just calling it that now because of the owner?
NZR have invested so much credibility (and probably money) in Robertson it's going to be hard for them to change tack.
They signed up an AB Head Coach with zero Test experience for 4 years, after believing the hype, to keep him in NZ so there's poss. a hefty payout to be made if they do want shot of him.
@Victor-Meldrew said in England Vs All Blacks:
NZR have invested so much credibility (and probably money) in Robertson it's going to be hard for them to change tack.
They signed up an AB Head Coach with zero Test experience for 4 years, after believing the hype, to keep him in NZ so there's poss. a hefty payout to be made if they do want shot of him.
What is the alternative? Record losses on the SA tour and an early exit at RWC27? I have zero faith that we can flick the script with Razor and his current group
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
What is the alternative?
Stop thinking it's all down to the Head Coach.
@Victor-Meldrew said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
What is the alternative?
Stop thinking it's all down to the Head Coach.
I don't think he'll be let go. My only hope is that they severely curtail his autonomy by firing all his assistants and installing new ones that may not be of his choosing
Genuinely I wonder if the AB coaching jobs have or are being turned into poison chalices.....
Look at Kendrick Lynn or Tony Brown, they are probably having a lot of fun right now given how well their respective teams are playing. No way people like that would walk away from their current gigs to work with Razor and all the headaches that would come your way. What sort of calibre coach is gong to be willing to take the jobs? It seems like all you would attract is run of the mill coaches or people out of work, not people who would move the needle.
@Nepia said in England Vs All Blacks:
@ACT-Crusader said in England Vs All Blacks:
@tubbyj said in England Vs All Blacks:
@DaGrubster said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Tim said in England Vs All Blacks:
@African-Monkey Yep, absolutely. Was allowed side entry to rucks at will. Absolutely will get penalised for that in test rugby.
Savea will play the same way no matter what jersey is on his back.
He shoukd have stayed at 8 as we need perpetual motion in an openside. Not a player looking for his moments and watching rucks.
Beer suited to the bench now and get Paps or Lakai as our 7.
Ironically Razor would have been better being Crusader biased and picking Tom Christie for 7 than either of Savea or Kirifi. He would have wore greater initial criticism but at least the All Blacks would have a tackling machine who hits rucks at 7.
Agree. CLW at number 8 and take a punt on Gardiner at 6.
Hotham at 9, and new blood like Reihana at 1st 5.
I would’ve gone with some experience at 12 like Havili and an inform Ennor at centre. Open it up for Fainga’anuku and Jordan on the wings. T. Chief at fullback.
Coward.
Fihaki’s just not ready….
@ACT-Crusader said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Nepia said in England Vs All Blacks:
@ACT-Crusader said in England Vs All Blacks:
@tubbyj said in England Vs All Blacks:
@DaGrubster said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Tim said in England Vs All Blacks:
@African-Monkey Yep, absolutely. Was allowed side entry to rucks at will. Absolutely will get penalised for that in test rugby.
Savea will play the same way no matter what jersey is on his back.
He shoukd have stayed at 8 as we need perpetual motion in an openside. Not a player looking for his moments and watching rucks.
Beer suited to the bench now and get Paps or Lakai as our 7.
Ironically Razor would have been better being Crusader biased and picking Tom Christie for 7 than either of Savea or Kirifi. He would have wore greater initial criticism but at least the All Blacks would have a tackling machine who hits rucks at 7.
Agree. CLW at number 8 and take a punt on Gardiner at 6.
Hotham at 9, and new blood like Reihana at 1st 5.
I would’ve gone with some experience at 12 like Havili and an inform Ennor at centre. Open it up for Fainga’anuku and Jordan on the wings. T. Chief at fullback.
Coward.
Fihaki’s just not ready….
He's tall though, he might be able to actually catch one of the up and unders Hotham puts up.
@Dodge said in England Vs All Blacks:
its been fun to watch South African twitter blow up since Saturday, they seem furious that England have won 10 in a row and think they're making progress. I've seen people write off this team because they've only won against the big teams at home, ignoring the two games in Argentina. We only just beat France and Scotland, australia and NZ are shit so it doesn't count etc etc
I don't think any England fan thinks we're as good as South Africa, but it makes a pleasant change to be winning. Nice to be the focus of SA ire again.
You know you’ve arrived when you’re worthy of SA scorn. Easily the easiest team to despise, although a bit better since Farrell sucked himself up his own arsehole.
When your flyhalf huffs and puffs at 30 min on the first half...you know you are in for a long afternoon. Where is our much talked about conditioning gone??? Where we used to put sides to the sword just before halftime and the final 20 minutes in 2nd half.
@Mauss said in England Vs All Blacks:
I thought the Dingwall try was actually quite symbolic for some of the deeper-lying issues within this team. It shows that the players don’t trust each other and that the opposition is generally smarter than them.
It is honestly an embarrassingly easy score for England: Mitchell throws the long pass to Lawrence, taking out both Taylor and Lakai from the defensive picture. It leaves England and the ABs with a two-on-two: Lawrence and Dingwall against Carter and Tupaea.
There is really no reason for Tupaea to bite in here, unless he doesn’t trust Carter to make the tackle on Lawrence. And that takes us all the way back to the try in the first half, where Carter gets flattened by the English centre. Tupaea gets a flashback, wants to put in a double shot, and then it’s just easy hands at the line for Lawrence. Proctor is far back because he’s covering the English attackers hidden in the boot; he’s trusting his teammates to execute the defensive 2-on-2.
It's smart from England but it is painfully naïve from an AB perspective. Big, individual errors, like Leroy Carter’s in the first half, are a mental challenge for a team. If you’re a good side, you immediately put it behind you and start again. If you’re mentally fragile, it becomes like a domino-effect, influencing your every move and decision from that moment onwards.
After the England Test, I think it’s pretty clear what kind of team these ABs are.
Fragile and lacking composure.
That happened right in front of where I was sitting.
Strikes me positioning of Carter was a bit close to end of lineout. He and Tupaea being another metre wider and Dingwall gap would have been
much narrower.