its been fun to watch South African twitter blow up since Saturday, they seem furious that England have won 10 in a row and think they're making progress. I've seen people write off this team because they've only won against the big teams at home, ignoring the two games in Argentina. We only just beat France and Scotland, australia and NZ are shit so it doesn't count etc etc

I don't think any England fan thinks we're as good as South Africa, but it makes a pleasant change to be winning. Nice to be the focus of SA ire again.

@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:

@nostrildamus said in England Vs All Blacks:

@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:

Probably feels like he's going to be joining a superior team as well...

Ooh and I thought I was a little bit bitter!

Hoskins says look at the scoreboard

33-19

He good enough to break into the England loose forward group?

@booboo said in England Vs All Blacks:

@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:

@nostrildamus said in England Vs All Blacks:

@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:

Probably feels like he's going to be joining a superior team as well...

Ooh and I thought I was a little bit bitter!

Hoskins says look at the scoreboard

33-19

He good enough to break into the England loose forward group?

No

@Dodge said in England Vs All Blacks:

South African twitter

That was your mistake really

@booboo said in England Vs All Blacks:

33-19

He good enough to break into the England loose forward group?

This was discussed here a few months ago and some weren't convinced he would be. If I was coach of England I'd be tempted to select and play him against the ABs though. Even if just for psychological reasons

@booboo said in England Vs All Blacks:

@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:

@nostrildamus said in England Vs All Blacks:

@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:

Probably feels like he's going to be joining a superior team as well...

Ooh and I thought I was a little bit bitter!

Hoskins says look at the scoreboard

33-19

He good enough to break into the England loose forward group?

If you believe MSM Borthwick wants him for his team playing No 8

@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:

If you believe MSM Borthwick wants him for his team playing No 8

He's also had major shoulder surgery, hasn't he? Might not be the same player.

@booboo said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Dodge said in England Vs All Blacks:

South African twitter

That was your mistake really

I didn't even know they had a Twitter, unless we're just calling it that now because of the owner?

@canefan

NZR have invested so much credibility (and probably money) in Robertson it's going to be hard for them to change tack.

They signed up an AB Head Coach with zero Test experience for 4 years, after believing the hype, to keep him in NZ so there's poss. a hefty payout to be made if they do want shot of him.

@Victor-Meldrew said in England Vs All Blacks:

@canefan

NZR have invested so much credibility (and probably money) in Robertson it's going to be hard for them to change tack.

They signed up an AB Head Coach with zero Test experience for 4 years, after believing the hype, to keep him in NZ so there's poss. a hefty payout to be made if they do want shot of him.

What is the alternative? Record losses on the SA tour and an early exit at RWC27? I have zero faith that we can flick the script with Razor and his current group

@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:

What is the alternative?

Stop thinking it's all down to the Head Coach.

@Victor-Meldrew said in England Vs All Blacks:

@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:

What is the alternative?

Stop thinking it's all down to the Head Coach.

I don't think he'll be let go. My only hope is that they severely curtail his autonomy by firing all his assistants and installing new ones that may not be of his choosing

Genuinely I wonder if the AB coaching jobs have or are being turned into poison chalices.....

Look at Kendrick Lynn or Tony Brown, they are probably having a lot of fun right now given how well their respective teams are playing. No way people like that would walk away from their current gigs to work with Razor and all the headaches that would come your way. What sort of calibre coach is gong to be willing to take the jobs? It seems like all you would attract is run of the mill coaches or people out of work, not people who would move the needle.

@Nepia said in England Vs All Blacks:

@ACT-Crusader said in England Vs All Blacks:

@tubbyj said in England Vs All Blacks:

@DaGrubster said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Tim said in England Vs All Blacks:

@African-Monkey Yep, absolutely. Was allowed side entry to rucks at will. Absolutely will get penalised for that in test rugby.

Savea will play the same way no matter what jersey is on his back.

He shoukd have stayed at 8 as we need perpetual motion in an openside. Not a player looking for his moments and watching rucks.

Beer suited to the bench now and get Paps or Lakai as our 7.

Ironically Razor would have been better being Crusader biased and picking Tom Christie for 7 than either of Savea or Kirifi. He would have wore greater initial criticism but at least the All Blacks would have a tackling machine who hits rucks at 7.

Agree. CLW at number 8 and take a punt on Gardiner at 6.

Hotham at 9, and new blood like Reihana at 1st 5.

I would’ve gone with some experience at 12 like Havili and an inform Ennor at centre. Open it up for Fainga’anuku and Jordan on the wings. T. Chief at fullback.

Coward.

Fihaki’s just not ready….

@ACT-Crusader said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Nepia said in England Vs All Blacks:

@ACT-Crusader said in England Vs All Blacks:

@tubbyj said in England Vs All Blacks:

@DaGrubster said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Tim said in England Vs All Blacks:

@African-Monkey Yep, absolutely. Was allowed side entry to rucks at will. Absolutely will get penalised for that in test rugby.

Savea will play the same way no matter what jersey is on his back.

He shoukd have stayed at 8 as we need perpetual motion in an openside. Not a player looking for his moments and watching rucks.

Beer suited to the bench now and get Paps or Lakai as our 7.

Ironically Razor would have been better being Crusader biased and picking Tom Christie for 7 than either of Savea or Kirifi. He would have wore greater initial criticism but at least the All Blacks would have a tackling machine who hits rucks at 7.

Agree. CLW at number 8 and take a punt on Gardiner at 6.

Hotham at 9, and new blood like Reihana at 1st 5.

I would’ve gone with some experience at 12 like Havili and an inform Ennor at centre. Open it up for Fainga’anuku and Jordan on the wings. T. Chief at fullback.

Coward.

Fihaki’s just not ready….

He's tall though, he might be able to actually catch one of the up and unders Hotham puts up.

@Dodge said in England Vs All Blacks:

its been fun to watch South African twitter blow up since Saturday, they seem furious that England have won 10 in a row and think they're making progress. I've seen people write off this team because they've only won against the big teams at home, ignoring the two games in Argentina. We only just beat France and Scotland, australia and NZ are shit so it doesn't count etc etc

I don't think any England fan thinks we're as good as South Africa, but it makes a pleasant change to be winning. Nice to be the focus of SA ire again.

You know you’ve arrived when you’re worthy of SA scorn. Easily the easiest team to despise, although a bit better since Farrell sucked himself up his own arsehole.

When your flyhalf huffs and puffs at 30 min on the first half...you know you are in for a long afternoon. Where is our much talked about conditioning gone??? Where we used to put sides to the sword just before halftime and the final 20 minutes in 2nd half.

@Mauss said in England Vs All Blacks:

I thought the Dingwall try was actually quite symbolic for some of the deeper-lying issues within this team. It shows that the players don’t trust each other and that the opposition is generally smarter than them.

View image

It is honestly an embarrassingly easy score for England: Mitchell throws the long pass to Lawrence, taking out both Taylor and Lakai from the defensive picture. It leaves England and the ABs with a two-on-two: Lawrence and Dingwall against Carter and Tupaea.

There is really no reason for Tupaea to bite in here, unless he doesn’t trust Carter to make the tackle on Lawrence. And that takes us all the way back to the try in the first half, where Carter gets flattened by the English centre. Tupaea gets a flashback, wants to put in a double shot, and then it’s just easy hands at the line for Lawrence. Proctor is far back because he’s covering the English attackers hidden in the boot; he’s trusting his teammates to execute the defensive 2-on-2.

It's smart from England but it is painfully naïve from an AB perspective. Big, individual errors, like Leroy Carter’s in the first half, are a mental challenge for a team. If you’re a good side, you immediately put it behind you and start again. If you’re mentally fragile, it becomes like a domino-effect, influencing your every move and decision from that moment onwards.

After the England Test, I think it’s pretty clear what kind of team these ABs are.

Fragile and lacking composure.

That happened right in front of where I was sitting.

Strikes me positioning of Carter was a bit close to end of lineout. He and Tupaea being another metre wider and Dingwall gap would have been
much narrower.

@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Victor-Meldrew said in England Vs All Blacks:

@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:

What is the alternative?

Stop thinking it's all down to the Head Coach.

I don't think he'll be let go. My only hope is that they severely curtail his autonomy by firing all his assistants and installing new ones that may not be of his choosing

First, someone needs to review the current set-up to understand what is happening and come up with an improvement plan. Someone like Cotter with support from McCaw or Whitelock?

My guess is Robertson is out of his depth and doesn't know how to ask for help. He promoted himself as a coaching genius who threatened to leave NZ to leverage to get the job. He now looks a rabbit in the headlights and needs some direction and support.

@Victor-Meldrew said in England Vs All Blacks:

@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Victor-Meldrew said in England Vs All Blacks:

@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:

What is the alternative?

Stop thinking it's all down to the Head Coach.

I don't think he'll be let go. My only hope is that they severely curtail his autonomy by firing all his assistants and installing new ones that may not be of his choosing

First, someone needs to review the current set-up to understand what is happening and come up with an improvement plan. Someone like Cotter with support from McCaw or Whitelock?

My guess is Robertson is out of his depth and doesn't know how to ask for help. He promoted himself as a coaching genius who threatened to leave NZ to leverage to get the job. He now looks a rabbit in the headlights and needs some direction and support.

In fairness he probably got sucked in by his own success at local level like everyone else did and actually believed he had the answers , it wasn’t so much a con job , he really believed it .

And he will probably be a better coach from this tough lesson one day but he will be gone to us , similar to a John Mitchell.

@Mattasaurus said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Steven-Harris said in England Vs All Blacks:

@jimmyb you are correct
The discipline is as bad as it was under the back end of Hansen,Foster and now Robinson and it has’nt improved under the later
The aimless high kick and cross kick game still a major problem under all 3 coaches

I think a lot of it comes down to BB being immune to being dropped - aimless, low percentage kicking has been his bread and butter for years now.

The bigger problem of the above is that our forwards win enough ball to expect the backs to progress the game or even score - these moments are not that common and when they are duly wasted on yet another feckless BB kick you have to wonder what it takes to roll the dice on some of the younger options

It takes away from the DNA of our rugby. Heads up rugby with players who like to run with the ball. The most frustrating play is the cross kick when under penalty advantage - a low % play when the ref is going to give you every chance to work space and score close to the line. We know the balance is important but when the ABs were down against Boks in Wellington and we had low % plays like chip kicking for Ardie Savea… ffs.

The other aspect of this is how incestuous our rugby community is - ex ABs as player agents and commentators on the game, a press that incessantly talks up the coaches narrative on the kicking game yet ignores how poor we kick and our inability to retain possession and build pressure. You can critique players/ coaches for decisions, performance and skills without denigrating them. Instead we talk in cliches until it smacks us in the face.

@kiwiinmelb said in England Vs All Blacks:

And he will probably be a better coach from this tough lesson one day but he will be gone to us , similar to a John Mitchell.

Hopefully NZR and the idiots who cheer-led him blindly will learn something as well.

Laurie Mains suggests the All Blacks coaches aren't on the same page as each other. I wonder what he's heard.

@sparky

Dysfunctional Coaching team, dysfunctional team....

@sparky said in England Vs All Blacks:

Laurie Mains suggests the All Blacks coaches aren't on the same page as each other. I wonder what he's heard.

View embedded content

you don't have to be a ex all Blacks coach to see that

@ploughboy Steve Devine has said the same thing:

I only watched a bit of the Breakdown. While it was nice to see them being critical, did any of the criticism extend to the players? What I saw seemed to be 'we have the cattle, this is a good team, look at all the experience, we're good in patches, not coping with pressure' and blame the coaches. But I think the experienced guys are a big part of the problem: they can't cope with pressure and if e.g. BB and AS aren't patchy players, I don't know who is.

Yeah, no criticism of individual players. Some criticism of the leadership group in terms of they should know better having been to RWCs etc. and no criticism of the coaching group's stubborness in retaining old cooked vets

@sparky said in England Vs All Blacks:

@ploughboy Steve Devine has said the same thing:

Quoting an ex-Blues man AND halfback on here is like playing double jeopardy!
Some cojones!

@nostrildamus well plenty on here were lamenting the lack of performance KPIs for Foster, so you'd hope (no doubt in vain) they learnt from that and tied some to Razor, even with a 4 year contract.

@nostrildamus said in England Vs All Blacks:

@sparky said in England Vs All Blacks:

@ploughboy Steve Devine has said the same thing:

Quoting an ex-Blues man AND halfback on here is like playing double jeopardy!
Some cojones!

He's an aussie too mate.

@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:

and if e.g. BB and AS aren't patchy players, I don't know who is.

Jordan, DMac, Leicester, Carter, Reece...

(but actually I like the first three)...

@nostrildamus said in England Vs All Blacks:

@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:

and if e.g. BB and AS aren't patchy players, I don't know who is.

Jordan, DMac, Leicester, Carter, Reece...

(but actually I like the first three)...

Yes, though I'd argue less so. My point is just that our experienced guys (Taylor aside) are incredibly inconsistent whereas some newbies e.g. Lakai and Holland will go hard all game. So when someone is calling out our patchy performances and blaming the coaches, our patchy as fuck senior players ought to be copping it too.
And in my opinion anyone that flakey should never be anywhere near a leadership group. If their great moments are genuinely great they can fuck off to the wing and shut their dumb traps, otherwise they can watch it on the telly - though I'd wonder if they even have the attention span for that.

@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:

I don't generally watch or like The Breakdown. But this might be the best episode ever. Mils and Goldie are putting the boot into Razor and his group, NZR and the players. Their frustration and anger is palpable

NZR will probably demand that Goldie and Mils get sacked now, so they'll quietly get brushed to the side for Angus Ta'avao and James Parsons.

@nostrildamus And, most bravely of all, an Aussie.

@sparky said in England Vs All Blacks:

@nostrildamus And, most bravely of all, an Aussie.

Yes but for an Aussie Blues halfback he was simply Devine!

Can we keep this thread about the match please

AB thread for general stuff... or start a new thread in the Sports forum

This stands out from that article with Devine

“At times we lost our direction. We’ve lost our DNA on how to attack because once upon a time people used to kick a rugby ball to us at their peril,” Devine said.

“We just seem to be so structured now, we’re a bit lost at times on how to attack, which is something I don’t think I’ve ever seen from an All Black team before.”

Not really surprising when we don't have a creator in the back three.

Jordan hunts for himself. Barrett will kick it away.

To be fair, nah fuck that, I'm here to put the boot in.

@gt12 said in England v All Blacks:

This stands out from that article with Devine

“At times we lost our direction. We’ve lost our DNA on how to attack because once upon a time people used to kick a rugby ball to us at their peril,” Devine said.

“We just seem to be so structured now, we’re a bit lost at times on how to attack, which is something I don’t think I’ve ever seen from an All Black team before.”

Not really surprising when we don't have a creator in the back three.

Jordan hunts for himself. Barrett will kick it away.

To be fair, nah fuck that, I'm here to put the boot in.

On the evidence of this match: if the opposition kick it to us, all we will do is kick it back, but worse.
If we manage to claim it of course.