When your flyhalf huffs and puffs at 30 min on the first half...you know you are in for a long afternoon. Where is our much talked about conditioning gone??? Where we used to put sides to the sword just before halftime and the final 20 minutes in 2nd half.
@Mauss said in England Vs All Blacks:
I thought the Dingwall try was actually quite symbolic for some of the deeper-lying issues within this team. It shows that the players don’t trust each other and that the opposition is generally smarter than them.
It is honestly an embarrassingly easy score for England: Mitchell throws the long pass to Lawrence, taking out both Taylor and Lakai from the defensive picture. It leaves England and the ABs with a two-on-two: Lawrence and Dingwall against Carter and Tupaea.
There is really no reason for Tupaea to bite in here, unless he doesn’t trust Carter to make the tackle on Lawrence. And that takes us all the way back to the try in the first half, where Carter gets flattened by the English centre. Tupaea gets a flashback, wants to put in a double shot, and then it’s just easy hands at the line for Lawrence. Proctor is far back because he’s covering the English attackers hidden in the boot; he’s trusting his teammates to execute the defensive 2-on-2.
It's smart from England but it is painfully naïve from an AB perspective. Big, individual errors, like Leroy Carter’s in the first half, are a mental challenge for a team. If you’re a good side, you immediately put it behind you and start again. If you’re mentally fragile, it becomes like a domino-effect, influencing your every move and decision from that moment onwards.
After the England Test, I think it’s pretty clear what kind of team these ABs are.
Fragile and lacking composure.
That happened right in front of where I was sitting.
Strikes me positioning of Carter was a bit close to end of lineout. He and Tupaea being another metre wider and Dingwall gap would have been
much narrower.
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Victor-Meldrew said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
What is the alternative?
Stop thinking it's all down to the Head Coach.
I don't think he'll be let go. My only hope is that they severely curtail his autonomy by firing all his assistants and installing new ones that may not be of his choosing
First, someone needs to review the current set-up to understand what is happening and come up with an improvement plan. Someone like Cotter with support from McCaw or Whitelock?
My guess is Robertson is out of his depth and doesn't know how to ask for help. He promoted himself as a coaching genius who threatened to leave NZ to leverage to get the job. He now looks a rabbit in the headlights and needs some direction and support.
@Victor-Meldrew said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Victor-Meldrew said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
What is the alternative?
Stop thinking it's all down to the Head Coach.
I don't think he'll be let go. My only hope is that they severely curtail his autonomy by firing all his assistants and installing new ones that may not be of his choosing
First, someone needs to review the current set-up to understand what is happening and come up with an improvement plan. Someone like Cotter with support from McCaw or Whitelock?
My guess is Robertson is out of his depth and doesn't know how to ask for help. He promoted himself as a coaching genius who threatened to leave NZ to leverage to get the job. He now looks a rabbit in the headlights and needs some direction and support.
In fairness he probably got sucked in by his own success at local level like everyone else did and actually believed he had the answers , it wasn’t so much a con job , he really believed it .
And he will probably be a better coach from this tough lesson one day but he will be gone to us , similar to a John Mitchell.
@Mattasaurus said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Steven-Harris said in England Vs All Blacks:
@jimmyb you are
correct
The discipline is as bad as it was under the back end of Hansen,Foster and now Robinson and it has’nt improved under the later
The aimless high kick and cross kick game still a major problem under all 3 coachesI think a lot of it comes down to BB being immune to being dropped - aimless, low percentage kicking has been his bread and butter for years now.
The bigger problem of the above is that our forwards win enough ball to expect the backs to progress the game or even score - these moments are not that common and when they are duly wasted on yet another feckless BB kick you have to wonder what it takes to roll the dice on some of the younger options
It takes away from the DNA of our rugby. Heads up rugby with players who like to run with the ball. The most frustrating play is the cross kick when under penalty advantage - a low % play when the ref is going to give you every chance to work space and score close to the line. We know the balance is important but when the ABs were down against Boks in Wellington and we had low % plays like chip kicking for Ardie Savea… ffs.
The other aspect of this is how incestuous our rugby community is - ex ABs as player agents and commentators on the game, a press that incessantly talks up the coaches narrative on the kicking game yet ignores how poor we kick and our inability to retain possession and build pressure. You can critique players/ coaches for decisions, performance and skills without denigrating them. Instead we talk in cliches until it smacks us in the face.
@kiwiinmelb said in England Vs All Blacks:
And he will probably be a better coach from this tough lesson one day but he will be gone to us , similar to a John Mitchell.
Hopefully NZR and the idiots who cheer-led him blindly will learn something as well.
Laurie Mains suggests the All Blacks coaches aren't on the same page as each other. I wonder what he's heard.
@sparky said in England Vs All Blacks:
Laurie Mains suggests the All Blacks coaches aren't on the same page as each other. I wonder what he's heard.
you don't have to be a ex all Blacks coach to see that
@ploughboy Steve Devine has said the same thing:
I only watched a bit of the Breakdown. While it was nice to see them being critical, did any of the criticism extend to the players? What I saw seemed to be 'we have the cattle, this is a good team, look at all the experience, we're good in patches, not coping with pressure' and blame the coaches. But I think the experienced guys are a big part of the problem: they can't cope with pressure and if e.g. BB and AS aren't patchy players, I don't know who is.
Yeah, no criticism of individual players. Some criticism of the leadership group in terms of they should know better having been to RWCs etc. and no criticism of the coaching group's stubborness in retaining old cooked vets
@sparky said in England Vs All Blacks:
@ploughboy Steve Devine has said the same thing:
Quoting an ex-Blues man AND halfback on here is like playing double jeopardy!
Some cojones!
@nostrildamus well plenty on here were lamenting the lack of performance KPIs for Foster, so you'd hope (no doubt in vain) they learnt from that and tied some to Razor, even with a 4 year contract.
@nostrildamus said in England Vs All Blacks:
@sparky said in England Vs All Blacks:
@ploughboy Steve Devine has said the same thing:
Quoting an ex-Blues man AND halfback on here is like playing double jeopardy!
Some cojones!
He's an aussie too mate.
@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:
and if e.g. BB and AS aren't patchy players, I don't know who is.
Jordan, DMac, Leicester, Carter, Reece...
(but actually I like the first three)...
@nostrildamus said in England Vs All Blacks:
@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:
and if e.g. BB and AS aren't patchy players, I don't know who is.
Jordan, DMac, Leicester, Carter, Reece...
(but actually I like the first three)...
Yes, though I'd argue less so. My point is just that our experienced guys (Taylor aside) are incredibly inconsistent whereas some newbies e.g. Lakai and Holland will go hard all game. So when someone is calling out our patchy performances and blaming the coaches, our patchy as fuck senior players ought to be copping it too.
And in my opinion anyone that flakey should never be anywhere near a leadership group. If their great moments are genuinely great they can fuck off to the wing and shut their dumb traps, otherwise they can watch it on the telly - though I'd wonder if they even have the attention span for that.
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
I don't generally watch or like The Breakdown. But this might be the best episode ever. Mils and Goldie are putting the boot into Razor and his group, NZR and the players. Their frustration and anger is palpable
NZR will probably demand that Goldie and Mils get sacked now, so they'll quietly get brushed to the side for Angus Ta'avao and James Parsons.
@nostrildamus And, most bravely of all, an Aussie.
@sparky said in England Vs All Blacks:
@nostrildamus And, most bravely of all, an Aussie.
Yes but for an Aussie Blues halfback he was simply Devine!
Can we keep this thread about the match please
AB thread for general stuff... or start a new thread in the Sports forum
This stands out from that article with Devine
“At times we lost our direction. We’ve lost our DNA on how to attack because once upon a time people used to kick a rugby ball to us at their peril,” Devine said.
“We just seem to be so structured now, we’re a bit lost at times on how to attack, which is something I don’t think I’ve ever seen from an All Black team before.”
Not really surprising when we don't have a creator in the back three.
Jordan hunts for himself. Barrett will kick it away.
To be fair, nah fuck that, I'm here to put the boot in.
@gt12 said in England v All Blacks:
This stands out from that article with Devine
“At times we lost our direction. We’ve lost our DNA on how to attack because once upon a time people used to kick a rugby ball to us at their peril,” Devine said.
“We just seem to be so structured now, we’re a bit lost at times on how to attack, which is something I don’t think I’ve ever seen from an All Black team before.”
Not really surprising when we don't have a creator in the back three.
Jordan hunts for himself. Barrett will kick it away.
To be fair, nah fuck that, I'm here to put the boot in.
On the evidence of this match: if the opposition kick it to us, all we will do is kick it back, but worse.
If we manage to claim it of course.
@reprobate said in England v All Blacks:
@gt12 said in England v All Blacks:
This stands out from that article with Devine
“At times we lost our direction. We’ve lost our DNA on how to attack because once upon a time people used to kick a rugby ball to us at their peril,” Devine said.
“We just seem to be so structured now, we’re a bit lost at times on how to attack, which is something I don’t think I’ve ever seen from an All Black team before.”
Not really surprising when we don't have a creator in the back three.
Jordan hunts for himself. Barrett will kick it away.
To be fair, nah fuck that, I'm here to put the boot in.
On the evidence of this match: if the opposition kick it to us, all we will do is kick it back, but worse.
If we manage to claim it of course.
England were so much more adept than us at kicking. So after almost every kick we had a negative gain
2nd half re-watch.
De Groot off for Williams at half time.
England kick off, we clear from a ruck via Roigard. England win the lineout, and move the ball. Taylor gets an absurd yellow card.
England don't miss touch with their penalty, go a few phases then barrel over the top of BB to score. Roigard off injured, Ratima on.
We kick off, England return, Jordan claims and we win a penalty. We decide to tap it. We can't just do normal dumb play, we're creating new ways to be dumb? Then we go a couple of nothing rucks and kick it away? It's BB's first contestable kick which is actually contestable, but the Poms tidy it up and clear. Why were not launching a strike move from a lineout inside their 22 FFS?
Anyway, a few more middle of the field nothing phases then Ratima puts up a contestable kick which we get back and Carter makes good ground into the 22. Shit passing from Lakai and LF who throws it forward, chance gone. England 8 on 7 scrum penalty and we're back on our 10m, their ball.
England score from the lineout with LF a bad miss on Roebuck. Try rubbed out by the TMO, and we have a penalty, which Jordan is kicking for touch. Why is BB on the field, and why can he kick off and put up bombs, but not kick for touch?
We win the lineout, and go through a few phases before BB cross-kicks it away - turns out he can do every sort of kick except finding touch from a penalty. For the 2nd time in the match our deadshit commentator says 'and it's not a bad one!' when it is. It's too far in front of Tupaea and he can't get to it, turnover ball.
A few scrum resets where we are probably lucky not to be penalised. England clear via a contestable kick which they win back, and Ford kicks a 50-22.
McKenzie, Tosi, Sititi on. Straight from the lineout Tupaea doesn't take his man and England score easily 25-12, then replace most of their forward pack.
England kick out on the full from the kick-off and we get another chance. Going nowhere but get a penalty advantage then a loose pass from McKenzie so time for another tap. Still going nowhere, McKenzie gets a nothing pass and knocks on in contact. England counterattack but knock on at halfway. Poms then win a scrum penalty on our feed, so we're back in our 22 under pressure again.
Loose pass from them, and Proctor is able to clear into their 22, then a penalty for holding on. Gifted another chance, we go to the lineout but they infringe, then they maul illegally from the next lineout, yellow card. 3rd lineout we get the ball to the backs finally and McKenzie puts Jordan in with ease. Darry and ALB on.
They kick off, Ratima clears, they mess up their lineout yet again. From the scrum we get penalty advantage, McKenzie kicks to LF who can't find Jordan on a good line.
We win the lineout go a phase or two making ground then are penalised for sealing off. England kick back to our 22, again lose their lineout, and McKenzie clears long. Bit of kicking back and forth, then England win a contestable kick from Ratima and LF penalised for tackle in the air.
England win their own lineout on attack, and go with the bomb which McKenzie contests and they knock on.
Ratima mucks around and gets scragged by Pollock who looked to be off the scrum illegally. We secure the ball, but Ratima can only clear to the 22, and we get penalised at the lineout, which Ford duly kicks to take the margin out past a converted try.
We kick off, they return fire, we go nowhere until Darry throws a pass to the ground in front of Jordan, who gives up in disgust. McKenzie, Proctor and ALB all try to get back but it's toed through and England score, game over.
We throw the ball around a bit and get a couple of penalties, then lose our own lineout and that's time.
So again, their contestable kicking game much better than ours. Ratima's clearances not a patch on Roigard. Our discipline letting us down (though the card was a joke). A weak scrum, and just doing dumb, dumb stuff. They gave us opportunities, we couldn't take them.
It's also really noticeable how poor LF's handling and ball security is. He is great ball in hand, but you' have to ask how many turnovers is he costing per game? Not that it matters when we're just going to kick it away badly anyway I suppose.
@reprobate said in England v All Blacks:
It's also really noticeable how poor LF's handling and ball security is. He is great ball in hand, but you' have to ask how many turnovers is he costing per game? Not that it matters when we're just going to kick it away badly anyway I suppose.
The drop in quality from Clarke to LF was enormous
@Duluth said in England v All Blacks:
@reprobate said in England v All Blacks:
It's also really noticeable how poor LF's handling and ball security is. He is great ball in hand, but you' have to ask how many turnovers is he costing per game? Not that it matters when we're just going to kick it away badly anyway I suppose.
The drop in quality from Clarke to LF was enormous
Agree. I like his effort, but it is just way too many mistakes for an AB.
@reprobate that's an impressive exercise in self harm right there!
@canefan said in England v All Blacks:
@reprobate that's an impressive exercise in self harm right there!
Oh don't worry bro, I totally deserve it - and have become a bit less invested in it to be honest, until we see some meaningful change. It's interesting to go through it a bit more methodically and see whether the things that piss you off watching it live are actually accurate, and just how many times we are fucking certain things up.
@reprobate LF is holding the ball incorrectly. So when he’s hit in a tackle or goes to ground there’s a higher chance of it being hit out or spilling on impact. Nonu and Lauaki had similar issues early in their careers. Clarke had a bad patch of losing the ball when he first came on to the scene.
Worth persisting with as a bench option if he tidies that up.
@ACT-Crusader said in England v All Blacks:
@reprobate LF is holding the ball incorrectly. So when he’s hit in a tackle or goes to ground there’s a higher chance of it being hit out or spilling on impact. Nonu and Lauaki had similar issues early in their careers. Clarke had a bad patch of losing the ball when he first came on to the scene.
Worth persisting with as a bench option if he tidies that up.
Will he be better than Timoci in super rugby next year? They are sort of auditioning for one position
@canefan said in England v All Blacks:
@ACT-Crusader said in England v All Blacks:
@reprobate LF is holding the ball incorrectly. So when he’s hit in a tackle or goes to ground there’s a higher chance of it being hit out or spilling on impact. Nonu and Lauaki had similar issues early in their careers. Clarke had a bad patch of losing the ball when he first came on to the scene.
Worth persisting with as a bench option if he tidies that up.
Will he be better than Timoci in super rugby next year? They are sort of auditioning for one position
LF has shown more than Timoci this year in test rugby.
@KiwiMurph said in England v All Blacks:
@canefan said in England v All Blacks:
@ACT-Crusader said in England v All Blacks:
@reprobate LF is holding the ball incorrectly. So when he’s hit in a tackle or goes to ground there’s a higher chance of it being hit out or spilling on impact. Nonu and Lauaki had similar issues early in their careers. Clarke had a bad patch of losing the ball when he first came on to the scene.
Worth persisting with as a bench option if he tidies that up.
Will he be better than Timoci in super rugby next year? They are sort of auditioning for one position
LF has shown more than Timoci this year in test rugby.
Timoci's error rate in Tests is something Leicester should aspire to.
@antipodean said in England v All Blacks:
@KiwiMurph said in England v All Blacks:
@canefan said in England v All Blacks:
@ACT-Crusader said in England v All Blacks:
@reprobate LF is holding the ball incorrectly. So when he’s hit in a tackle or goes to ground there’s a higher chance of it being hit out or spilling on impact. Nonu and Lauaki had similar issues early in their careers. Clarke had a bad patch of losing the ball when he first came on to the scene.
Worth persisting with as a bench option if he tidies that up.
Will he be better than Timoci in super rugby next year? They are sort of auditioning for one position
LF has shown more than Timoci this year in test rugby.
Timoci's error rate in Tests is something Leicester should aspire to.
I thought he was okay until his run was cut short by injury
@KiwiMurph To be fair to TT, he got two bench appearances against France. Very conceivable he causes Scotland all sorts of problems.
@sparky said in England v All Blacks:
@ploughboy Steve Devine has said the same thing:
Razor is the head coach, surely he just needs to lay down the law to the other coaches.
