Yeah, no criticism of individual players. Some criticism of the leadership group in terms of they should know better having been to RWCs etc. and no criticism of the coaching group's stubborness in retaining old cooked vets
England
Match thread
All Blacks
@sparky said in England Vs All Blacks:
@ploughboy Steve Devine has said the same thing:
Quoting an ex-Blues man AND halfback on here is like playing double jeopardy!
Some cojones!
@nostrildamus well plenty on here were lamenting the lack of performance KPIs for Foster, so you'd hope (no doubt in vain) they learnt from that and tied some to Razor, even with a 4 year contract.
@nostrildamus said in England Vs All Blacks:
@sparky said in England Vs All Blacks:
@ploughboy Steve Devine has said the same thing:
Quoting an ex-Blues man AND halfback on here is like playing double jeopardy!
Some cojones!
He's an aussie too mate.
@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:
and if e.g. BB and AS aren't patchy players, I don't know who is.
Jordan, DMac, Leicester, Carter, Reece...
(but actually I like the first three)...
@nostrildamus said in England Vs All Blacks:
@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:
and if e.g. BB and AS aren't patchy players, I don't know who is.
Jordan, DMac, Leicester, Carter, Reece...
(but actually I like the first three)...
Yes, though I'd argue less so. My point is just that our experienced guys (Taylor aside) are incredibly inconsistent whereas some newbies e.g. Lakai and Holland will go hard all game. So when someone is calling out our patchy performances and blaming the coaches, our patchy as fuck senior players ought to be copping it too.
And in my opinion anyone that flakey should never be anywhere near a leadership group. If their great moments are genuinely great they can fuck off to the wing and shut their dumb traps, otherwise they can watch it on the telly - though I'd wonder if they even have the attention span for that.
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
I don't generally watch or like The Breakdown. But this might be the best episode ever. Mils and Goldie are putting the boot into Razor and his group, NZR and the players. Their frustration and anger is palpable
NZR will probably demand that Goldie and Mils get sacked now, so they'll quietly get brushed to the side for Angus Ta'avao and James Parsons.
@nostrildamus And, most bravely of all, an Aussie.
@sparky said in England Vs All Blacks:
@nostrildamus And, most bravely of all, an Aussie.
Yes but for an Aussie Blues halfback he was simply Devine!
Can we keep this thread about the match please
AB thread for general stuff... or start a new thread in the Sports forum
This stands out from that article with Devine
“At times we lost our direction. We’ve lost our DNA on how to attack because once upon a time people used to kick a rugby ball to us at their peril,” Devine said.
“We just seem to be so structured now, we’re a bit lost at times on how to attack, which is something I don’t think I’ve ever seen from an All Black team before.”
Not really surprising when we don't have a creator in the back three.
Jordan hunts for himself. Barrett will kick it away.
To be fair, nah fuck that, I'm here to put the boot in.
@gt12 said in England v All Blacks:
This stands out from that article with Devine
“At times we lost our direction. We’ve lost our DNA on how to attack because once upon a time people used to kick a rugby ball to us at their peril,” Devine said.
“We just seem to be so structured now, we’re a bit lost at times on how to attack, which is something I don’t think I’ve ever seen from an All Black team before.”
Not really surprising when we don't have a creator in the back three.
Jordan hunts for himself. Barrett will kick it away.
To be fair, nah fuck that, I'm here to put the boot in.
On the evidence of this match: if the opposition kick it to us, all we will do is kick it back, but worse.
If we manage to claim it of course.
@reprobate said in England v All Blacks:
@gt12 said in England v All Blacks:
This stands out from that article with Devine
“At times we lost our direction. We’ve lost our DNA on how to attack because once upon a time people used to kick a rugby ball to us at their peril,” Devine said.
“We just seem to be so structured now, we’re a bit lost at times on how to attack, which is something I don’t think I’ve ever seen from an All Black team before.”
Not really surprising when we don't have a creator in the back three.
Jordan hunts for himself. Barrett will kick it away.
To be fair, nah fuck that, I'm here to put the boot in.
On the evidence of this match: if the opposition kick it to us, all we will do is kick it back, but worse.
If we manage to claim it of course.
England were so much more adept than us at kicking. So after almost every kick we had a negative gain
2nd half re-watch.
De Groot off for Williams at half time.
England kick off, we clear from a ruck via Roigard. England win the lineout, and move the ball. Taylor gets an absurd yellow card.
England don't miss touch with their penalty, go a few phases then barrel over the top of BB to score. Roigard off injured, Ratima on.
We kick off, England return, Jordan claims and we win a penalty. We decide to tap it. We can't just do normal dumb play, we're creating new ways to be dumb? Then we go a couple of nothing rucks and kick it away? It's BB's first contestable kick which is actually contestable, but the Poms tidy it up and clear. Why were not launching a strike move from a lineout inside their 22 FFS?
Anyway, a few more middle of the field nothing phases then Ratima puts up a contestable kick which we get back and Carter makes good ground into the 22. Shit passing from Lakai and LF who throws it forward, chance gone. England 8 on 7 scrum penalty and we're back on our 10m, their ball.
England score from the lineout with LF a bad miss on Roebuck. Try rubbed out by the TMO, and we have a penalty, which Jordan is kicking for touch. Why is BB on the field, and why can he kick off and put up bombs, but not kick for touch?
We win the lineout, and go through a few phases before BB cross-kicks it away - turns out he can do every sort of kick except finding touch from a penalty. For the 2nd time in the match our deadshit commentator says 'and it's not a bad one!' when it is. It's too far in front of Tupaea and he can't get to it, turnover ball.
A few scrum resets where we are probably lucky not to be penalised. England clear via a contestable kick which they win back, and Ford kicks a 50-22.
McKenzie, Tosi, Sititi on. Straight from the lineout Tupaea doesn't take his man and England score easily 25-12, then replace most of their forward pack.
England kick out on the full from the kick-off and we get another chance. Going nowhere but get a penalty advantage then a loose pass from McKenzie so time for another tap. Still going nowhere, McKenzie gets a nothing pass and knocks on in contact. England counterattack but knock on at halfway. Poms then win a scrum penalty on our feed, so we're back in our 22 under pressure again.
Loose pass from them, and Proctor is able to clear into their 22, then a penalty for holding on. Gifted another chance, we go to the lineout but they infringe, then they maul illegally from the next lineout, yellow card. 3rd lineout we get the ball to the backs finally and McKenzie puts Jordan in with ease. Darry and ALB on.
They kick off, Ratima clears, they mess up their lineout yet again. From the scrum we get penalty advantage, McKenzie kicks to LF who can't find Jordan on a good line.
We win the lineout go a phase or two making ground then are penalised for sealing off. England kick back to our 22, again lose their lineout, and McKenzie clears long. Bit of kicking back and forth, then England win a contestable kick from Ratima and LF penalised for tackle in the air.
England win their own lineout on attack, and go with the bomb which McKenzie contests and they knock on.
Ratima mucks around and gets scragged by Pollock who looked to be off the scrum illegally. We secure the ball, but Ratima can only clear to the 22, and we get penalised at the lineout, which Ford duly kicks to take the margin out past a converted try.
We kick off, they return fire, we go nowhere until Darry throws a pass to the ground in front of Jordan, who gives up in disgust. McKenzie, Proctor and ALB all try to get back but it's toed through and England score, game over.
We throw the ball around a bit and get a couple of penalties, then lose our own lineout and that's time.
So again, their contestable kicking game much better than ours. Ratima's clearances not a patch on Roigard. Our discipline letting us down (though the card was a joke). A weak scrum, and just doing dumb, dumb stuff. They gave us opportunities, we couldn't take them.
It's also really noticeable how poor LF's handling and ball security is. He is great ball in hand, but you' have to ask how many turnovers is he costing per game? Not that it matters when we're just going to kick it away badly anyway I suppose.
@reprobate said in England v All Blacks:
It's also really noticeable how poor LF's handling and ball security is. He is great ball in hand, but you' have to ask how many turnovers is he costing per game? Not that it matters when we're just going to kick it away badly anyway I suppose.
The drop in quality from Clarke to LF was enormous
@Duluth said in England v All Blacks:
@reprobate said in England v All Blacks:
It's also really noticeable how poor LF's handling and ball security is. He is great ball in hand, but you' have to ask how many turnovers is he costing per game? Not that it matters when we're just going to kick it away badly anyway I suppose.
The drop in quality from Clarke to LF was enormous
Agree. I like his effort, but it is just way too many mistakes for an AB.
@reprobate that's an impressive exercise in self harm right there!
@canefan said in England v All Blacks:
@reprobate that's an impressive exercise in self harm right there!
Oh don't worry bro, I totally deserve it - and have become a bit less invested in it to be honest, until we see some meaningful change. It's interesting to go through it a bit more methodically and see whether the things that piss you off watching it live are actually accurate, and just how many times we are fucking certain things up.
@reprobate LF is holding the ball incorrectly. So when he’s hit in a tackle or goes to ground there’s a higher chance of it being hit out or spilling on impact. Nonu and Lauaki had similar issues early in their careers. Clarke had a bad patch of losing the ball when he first came on to the scene.
Worth persisting with as a bench option if he tidies that up.
@ACT-Crusader said in England v All Blacks:
@reprobate LF is holding the ball incorrectly. So when he’s hit in a tackle or goes to ground there’s a higher chance of it being hit out or spilling on impact. Nonu and Lauaki had similar issues early in their careers. Clarke had a bad patch of losing the ball when he first came on to the scene.
Worth persisting with as a bench option if he tidies that up.
Will he be better than Timoci in super rugby next year? They are sort of auditioning for one position
@canefan said in England v All Blacks:
@ACT-Crusader said in England v All Blacks:
@reprobate LF is holding the ball incorrectly. So when he’s hit in a tackle or goes to ground there’s a higher chance of it being hit out or spilling on impact. Nonu and Lauaki had similar issues early in their careers. Clarke had a bad patch of losing the ball when he first came on to the scene.
Worth persisting with as a bench option if he tidies that up.
Will he be better than Timoci in super rugby next year? They are sort of auditioning for one position
LF has shown more than Timoci this year in test rugby.
@KiwiMurph said in England v All Blacks:
@canefan said in England v All Blacks:
@ACT-Crusader said in England v All Blacks:
@reprobate LF is holding the ball incorrectly. So when he’s hit in a tackle or goes to ground there’s a higher chance of it being hit out or spilling on impact. Nonu and Lauaki had similar issues early in their careers. Clarke had a bad patch of losing the ball when he first came on to the scene.
Worth persisting with as a bench option if he tidies that up.
Will he be better than Timoci in super rugby next year? They are sort of auditioning for one position
LF has shown more than Timoci this year in test rugby.
Timoci's error rate in Tests is something Leicester should aspire to.
@antipodean said in England v All Blacks:
@KiwiMurph said in England v All Blacks:
@canefan said in England v All Blacks:
@ACT-Crusader said in England v All Blacks:
@reprobate LF is holding the ball incorrectly. So when he’s hit in a tackle or goes to ground there’s a higher chance of it being hit out or spilling on impact. Nonu and Lauaki had similar issues early in their careers. Clarke had a bad patch of losing the ball when he first came on to the scene.
Worth persisting with as a bench option if he tidies that up.
Will he be better than Timoci in super rugby next year? They are sort of auditioning for one position
LF has shown more than Timoci this year in test rugby.
Timoci's error rate in Tests is something Leicester should aspire to.
I thought he was okay until his run was cut short by injury
@KiwiMurph To be fair to TT, he got two bench appearances against France. Very conceivable he causes Scotland all sorts of problems.
@sparky said in England v All Blacks:
@ploughboy Steve Devine has said the same thing:
Razor is the head coach, surely he just needs to lay down the law to the other coaches.
@canefan said in England v All Blacks:
@ACT-Crusader said in England v All Blacks:
@reprobate LF is holding the ball incorrectly. So when he’s hit in a tackle or goes to ground there’s a higher chance of it being hit out or spilling on impact. Nonu and Lauaki had similar issues early in should careers. Clarke had a bad patch of losing the ball when he first came on to the scene.
Worth persisting with as a bench option if he tidies that up.
Will he be better than Timoci in super rugby next year? They are sort of auditioning for one position
Given how this season has gone I’d say everyone should be auditioning for next year selection
@ACT-Crusader said in England v All Blacks:
@canefan said in England v All Blacks:
@ACT-Crusader said in England v All Blacks:
@reprobate LF is holding the ball incorrectly. So when he’s hit in a tackle or goes to ground there’s a higher chance of it being hit out or spilling on impact. Nonu and Lauaki had similar issues early in should careers. Clarke had a bad patch of losing the ball when he first came on to the scene.
Worth persisting with as a bench option if he tidies that up.
Will he be better than Timoci in super rugby next year? They are sort of auditioning for one position
Given how this season has gone I’d say everyone should be auditioning for next year selection
Starting with Razor....
@pourfasse said in England v All Blacks:
No men, no brain, no men no cry... they lack a leader in that backline. All are individual players who think about their stat.
I’m all for a bit scathing hyper-bowl but this isn’t basketball or cricket. I doubt any of them are seriously thinking about their stats.
@ACT-Crusader Look how Jordan is playing. He only thinks about doing meters and scoring tries. He was often waiting around the rucks. He did nothing. His tackles are soft.
@pourfasse They canned the defensive leader, Ioane, for a guy who was a complete dud in the SR playoffs in the past two seasons (Proctor). Low IQ coaches.
@pourfasse we often have one of our outside backs around the ruck in attack.
We want him to carry because he actually makes metres when he does.
@ACT-Crusader said in England v All Blacks:
@pourfasse we often have one of our outside backs around the ruck in attack.
We want him to carry because he actually makes metres when he does.
I don't know the stats. But it wouldn't surprise me if the backs make more metres than the forwards
@ACT-Crusader said in England v All Blacks:
@pourfasse we often have one of our outside backs around the ruck in attack.
We want him to carry because he actually makes metres when he does.
Sounds good, except when he's doing it on defence too, without even opening his gob and just walking around a handful of metres behind it - that does smell to me a lot like "I'm awaiting a miracle turnover or ball bobbling out so I can get an eye catching run".
think it was the Ben Youngs and Dan Cole podcast that suggested that England are playing better than the sum of their parts. They mentioned that if you picked a world XV today barely any Englishmen would make it in and I have to agree with the possible exception of Itoje / Underhill / Curry who would be there or there abouts. Some may become world class but almost none are.
With the ABs, I would say that the cattle are in a similar position, I don't think there are many that would make it into a world XV, but the coaching seems not to be making the best of them at the moment. The lack of direction and intensity on Saturday was something i can't remember seeing from the ABs, don't know if they're not drilled well enough (particularly in defence), or if they're not fit enough, or simply not understanding instructions. Playing 10 behind a pack going backwards in almost every contact (except the lineout) is always horrible and even the best players look can look awful. BB looks a bit lost at the moment
@Dodge said in England v All Blacks:
BB looks a bit lost at the moment
He's the highest paid All Black and the 5th most test-capped player of all time. He should be the last to look lost.
Razor’s either coaching some of this junk or he’s allowing it to happen. No consequences.
Anyone heard from Ellison lately? Used to be the master of the acerbic half time interview.
