think it was the Ben Youngs and Dan Cole podcast that suggested that England are playing better than the sum of their parts. They mentioned that if you picked a world XV today barely any Englishmen would make it in and I have to agree with the possible exception of Itoje / Underhill / Curry who would be there or there abouts. Some may become world class but almost none are.

With the ABs, I would say that the cattle are in a similar position, I don't think there are many that would make it into a world XV, but the coaching seems not to be making the best of them at the moment. The lack of direction and intensity on Saturday was something i can't remember seeing from the ABs, don't know if they're not drilled well enough (particularly in defence), or if they're not fit enough, or simply not understanding instructions. Playing 10 behind a pack going backwards in almost every contact (except the lineout) is always horrible and even the best players look can look awful. BB looks a bit lost at the moment

@Dodge said in England v All Blacks:

BB looks a bit lost at the moment

He's the highest paid All Black and the 5th most test-capped player of all time. He should be the last to look lost.

Razor’s either coaching some of this junk or he’s allowing it to happen. No consequences.

Anyone heard from Ellison lately? Used to be the master of the acerbic half time interview.

Watching this game, I remember thinking how lucky we were that England weren’t playing better. They had a chance to put more than 25 in a row in us.

The score massively flattered us.

The moment Mick Byrne left the ABs our kicking and high ball has gone to shyte.

@Kirwan said in England v All Blacks:

Watching this game, I remember thinking how lucky we were that England weren’t playing better. They had a chance to put more than 25 in a row in us.

The score massively flattered us.

We should have won that. Coaching own goal.

@Dodge England are a damn good side at the moment. Lots of balance to their game, they are really well drilled and confident in what they are doing, they have threat in so many aspects of their play, young guys like Feyi-Waboso, Pollock and Pepper are coming on leaps and bounds at the moment.

The Triple Crown, the Six Nations Title and the Grand Slam are all realistic objectives for England in the spring and making the Nations Championship final and the World Cup Final beyond that.

There was no shame in losing to England.

What there was deep shame in for the All Blacks was the manner of the defeat and the performance that proceeded it. We were way off.

Is this the first year that no AB has been nominated for mens player of the year??

@Young-Hamiltons said in England v All Blacks:

Is this the first year that no AB has been nominated for mens player of the year??

If you were picking a world 15 , I can’t remember a time when there would be so few allblacks in it .

So a little bit of inside knowledge from a source there’s tremendous friction in the camp (don’t know what about they wouldn’t spill) and that after that loss to England in the weekend Scott Barrett was on the verge of tears in the changing sheds.

@mikey07 said in England v All Blacks:

Scott Barrett was on the verge of tears in the changing sheds.

He seems like a good guy who shouldn't be in that position.

@mikey07 said in England v All Blacks:

So a little bit of inside knowledge from a source there’s tremendous friction in the camp (don’t know what about they wouldn’t spill) and that after that loss to England in the weekend Scott Barrett was on the verge of tears in the changing sheds.

You'd have to think there is a terminal problem with harmony within the group, either between the coaches, the coaches and players, the players themselves, or a combination. Even in Fozzie's darkest hours there did not appear to be cracks within the group themselves. Or at least no one broke ranks.

The bold play will be to bin the coaching group and at least salvage some of the wider player group, install someone for two years who can at least rebuild some esprit de corp within the team. I'm not sure NZR have the balls or the appetite for that

The way Jordan stopped running when Darry threw him a bad pass looked very much like 'fuck these useless fluffybunnies, I'm not cleaning that up'. Not a good look, especially from someone strong on the shit pass himself.

@mikey07 said in England v All Blacks:

So a little bit of inside knowledge from a source there’s tremendous friction in the camp.

This rumour has been doing the rounds since August at least. If anyone has any precise details, I'm all ears.

@mikey07 said in England v All Blacks:

Scott Barrett was on the verge of tears in the changing sheds.

May sound stupid, but good for him. Indicates passion.

@canefan said in England v All Blacks:

I'm not sure NZR have the balls or the appetite for that

Or the money, possibly.

@mikey07 said in England v All Blacks:

Scott Barrett was on the verge of tears in the changing sheds.

I'd expect nothing less from an All Blacks captain in the circumstances.

One of the All Black great strengths over the years is that they fucking hate losing.

@Tim said in England v All Blacks:

@mikey07 said in England v All Blacks:

Scott Barrett was on the verge of tears in the changing sheds.

He seems like a good guy who shouldn't be in that position.

Hes definitely got that Taine Randall look right now

@reprobate said in England v All Blacks:

The way Jordan stopped running when Darry threw him a bad pass looked very much like 'fuck these useless fluffybunnies, I'm not cleaning that up'. Not a good look, especially from someone strong on the shit pass himself.

I didn't notice that during the game but if you're right, disharmony within the group or not, that is piss poor from a professional player.

@reprobate said in England v All Blacks:

The way Jordan stopped running when Darry threw him a bad pass looked very much like 'fuck these useless fluffybunnies, I'm not cleaning that up'. Not a good look, especially from someone strong on the shit pass himself.

Got a time in the game?

@booboo said in England v All Blacks:

@reprobate said in England v All Blacks:

The way Jordan stopped running when Darry threw him a bad pass looked very much like 'fuck these useless fluffybunnies, I'm not cleaning that up'. Not a good look, especially from someone strong on the shit pass himself.

Got a time in the game?

76:35

It's the English try to Roebuck after Pollock toe-d it through

I do think that the players that have been selected should be playing better than they are. That fault lies squarely on the coaching setup. If the rumours are true, there doesn't seem to be a lot of trust within the group, and that is borne out on the field. In the offseason there needs to be a no holds barred exit process, including confidential feedback from the players. Identify the problems in the team and make proper changes

@Young-Hamiltons said in England v All Blacks:

Is this the first year that no AB has been nominated for mens player of the year??

Three Boks have, that seems a lot

@sparky said in England v All Blacks:

@Dodge England are a damn good side at the moment. Lots of balance to their game, they are really well drilled and confident in what they are doing, they have threat in so many aspects of their play, young guys like Feyi-Waboso, Pollock and Pepper are coming on leaps and bounds at the moment.

The Triple Crown, the Six Nations Title and the Grand Slam are all realistic objectives for England in the spring and making the Nations Championship final and the World Cup Final beyond that.

There was no shame in losing to England.

What there was deep shame in for the All Blacks was the manner of the defeat and the performance that proceeded it. We were way off.

We beat England reasonably comfortably in all 3 games last year. This manner of win shows that England have clearly improved while we have either stagnated or gone backwards.

@brodean said in England v All Blacks:

@sparky said in England v All Blacks:

@Dodge England are a damn good side at the moment. Lots of balance to their game, they are really well drilled and confident in what they are doing, they have threat in so many aspects of their play, young guys like Feyi-Waboso, Pollock and Pepper are coming on leaps and bounds at the moment.

The Triple Crown, the Six Nations Title and the Grand Slam are all realistic objectives for England in the spring and making the Nations Championship final and the World Cup Final beyond that.

There was no shame in losing to England.

What there was deep shame in for the All Blacks was the manner of the defeat and the performance that proceeded it. We were way off.

We beat England reasonably comfortably in all 3 games last year. This manner of win shows that England have clearly improved while we have either stagnated or gone backwards.

I don't remember them being that convincing

@brodean said in England v All Blacks:

@sparky said in England v All Blacks:

@Dodge England are a damn good side at the moment. Lots of balance to their game, they are really well drilled and confident in what they are doing, they have threat in so many aspects of their play, young guys like Feyi-Waboso, Pollock and Pepper are coming on leaps and bounds at the moment.

The Triple Crown, the Six Nations Title and the Grand Slam are all realistic objectives for England in the spring and making the Nations Championship final and the World Cup Final beyond that.

There was no shame in losing to England.

What there was deep shame in for the All Blacks was the manner of the defeat and the performance that proceeded it. We were way off.

We beat England reasonably comfortably in all 3 games last year. This manner of win shows that England have clearly improved while we have either stagnated or gone backwards.

Reasonably comfortably? What?

The ABs scraped home at Eden Park last year vs England due to the bench and the ABs were very lucky not to lose at Twickenham last year - Telea's match winning try only occurred because Beauden got subbed off due to injury (so Telea came back on the field after being subbed off). Combine that with George Ford having a shocking bench appearance for England and they missed two late chances to win it themselves (missed penalty which hit the post and a missed drop goal).

Edit - and the opening test of Razor's tenure the ABs won by 1 point in Dunedin.

@mikey07 Wondering if this A: The result of the game or B: The result of the game combined with him knowing that he’ll never be linking two arms with his brothers again in an AB jersey. I honestly think Beauden is calling it after Wales.

@reprobate said in England v All Blacks:

2nd half re-watch.
De Groot off for Williams at half time.
England kick off, we clear from a ruck via Roigard. England win the lineout, and move the ball. Taylor gets an absurd yellow card.
England don't miss touch with their penalty, go a few phases then barrel over the top of BB to score. Roigard off injured, Ratima on.
We kick off, England return, Jordan claims and we win a penalty. We decide to tap it.

I presume BB too crocked to kick for goal?

We can't just do normal dumb play, we're creating new ways to be dumb? Then we go a couple of nothing rucks and kick it away? It's BB's first contestable kick which is actually contestable, but the Poms tidy it up and clear. Why were not launching a strike move from a lineout inside their 22 FFS?
Anyway, a few more middle of the field nothing phases then Ratima puts up a contestable kick which we get back and Carter makes good ground into the 22. Shit passing from Lakai and LF who throws it forward, chance gone. England 8 on 7 scrum penalty and we're back on our 10m, their ball.
England score from the lineout with LF a bad miss on Roebuck. Try rubbed out by the TMO, and we have a penalty, which Jordan is kicking for touch. Why is BB on the field, and why can he kick off and put up bombs, but not kick for touch?

FFFS!

We win the lineout, and go through a few phases before BB cross-kicks it away - turns out he can do every sort of kick except finding touch from a penalty. For the 2nd time in the match our deadshit commentator says 'and it's not a bad one!' when it is. It's too far in front of Tupaea and he can't get to it, turnover ball.
A few scrum resets where we are probably lucky not to be penalised. England clear via a contestable kick which they win back, and Ford kicks a 50-22.

Very unlucky not to get ball from contestable and Carter too far upfield leaving a big space for Ford to hit, which he does.

McKenzie, Tosi, Sititi on. Straight from the lineout Tupaea doesn't take his man

Doesn’t trust Carter to take Lawrence and thus doesn’t drift on to Dingwall

and England score easily 25-12, then replace most of their forward pack.
England kick out on the full from the kick-off and we get another chance. Going nowhere but get a penalty advantage then a loose pass from McKenzie so time for another tap. Still going nowhere, McKenzie gets a nothing pass and knocks on in contact. England counterattack but knock on at halfway. Poms then win a scrum penalty on our feed, so we're back in our 22 under pressure again.
Loose pass from them, and Proctor is able to clear into their 22, then a penalty for holding on. Gifted another chance, we go to the lineout but they infringe, then they maul illegally from the next lineout, yellow card. 3rd lineout we get the ball to the backs finally and McKenzie puts Jordan in with ease. Darry and ALB on.
They kick off, Ratima clears, they mess up their lineout yet again. From the scrum we get penalty advantage, McKenzie kicks to LF who can't find Jordan on a good line.
We win the lineout go a phase or two making ground then are penalised for sealing off.

Dubious penalty as can be argued Sititi was cleaning Pillock.

England kick back to our 22, again lose their lineout, and McKenzie clears long. Bit of kicking back and forth, then England win a contestable kick from Ratima

WE ARE SIX BEHIND AND NINE TO GO ON HALFWAY AND RATIMA KICKS AWAY POSSESSION! 🤯

and LF penalised for tackle in the air.
England win their own lineout on attack, and go with the bomb which McKenzie contests and they knock on.
Ratima mucks around and gets scragged by Pollock who looked to be off the scrum illegally.

Clear penalty ABs right in front of ref’s nose!

We secure the ball, but Ratima can only clear to the 22, and we get penalised at the lineout, which Ford duly kicks to take the margin out past a converted try.
We kick off, they return fire, we go nowhere until Darry throws a pass to the ground in front of Jordan, who gives up in disgust. McKenzie, Proctor and ALB all try to get back but it's toed through and England score, game over.
We throw the ball around a bit and get a couple of penalties, then lose our own lineout and that's time.

So again, their contestable kicking game much better than ours. Ratima's clearances not a patch on Roigard.

And decision making also not a patch.

Our discipline

Only in second half, to be fair.

letting us down (though the card was a joke). A weak scrum, and just doing dumb, dumb stuff. They gave us opportunities, we couldn't take them.
It's also really noticeable how poor LF's handling and ball security is. He is great ball in hand, but you' have to ask how many turnovers is he costing per game? Not that it matters when we're just going to kick it away badly anyway I suppose.

@KiwiMurph said in England v All Blacks:

@brodean said in England v All Blacks:

@sparky said in England v All Blacks:

@Dodge England are a damn good side at the moment. Lots of balance to their game, they are really well drilled and confident in what they are doing, they have threat in so many aspects of their play, young guys like Feyi-Waboso, Pollock and Pepper are coming on leaps and bounds at the moment.

The Triple Crown, the Six Nations Title and the Grand Slam are all realistic objectives for England in the spring and making the Nations Championship final and the World Cup Final beyond that.

There was no shame in losing to England.

What there was deep shame in for the All Blacks was the manner of the defeat and the performance that proceeded it. We were way off.

We beat England reasonably comfortably in all 3 games last year. This manner of win shows that England have clearly improved while we have either stagnated or gone backwards.

Reasonably comfortably? What?

The ABs scraped home at Eden Park last year vs England due to the bench and the ABs were very lucky not to lose at Twickenham last year - Telea's match winning try only occurred because Beauden got subbed off due to injury (so Telea came back on the field after being subbed off). Combine that with George Ford having a shocking bench appearance for England and they missed two late chances to win it themselves (missed penalty which hit the post and a missed drop goal).

Edit - and the opening test of Razor's tenure the ABs won by 1 point in Dunedin.

Yeah fair enough I take your point. If you look at those matches I believe we were leading the majority of the time regardless of the points difference.

We historically do poorly in the first test.

@brodean said in England v All Blacks:

@KiwiMurph said in England v All Blacks:

@brodean said in England v All Blacks:

@sparky said in England v All Blacks:

@Dodge England are a damn good side at the moment. Lots of balance to their game, they are really well drilled and confident in what they are doing, they have threat in so many aspects of their play, young guys like Feyi-Waboso, Pollock and Pepper are coming on leaps and bounds at the moment.

The Triple Crown, the Six Nations Title and the Grand Slam are all realistic objectives for England in the spring and making the Nations Championship final and the World Cup Final beyond that.

There was no shame in losing to England.

What there was deep shame in for the All Blacks was the manner of the defeat and the performance that proceeded it. We were way off.

We beat England reasonably comfortably in all 3 games last year. This manner of win shows that England have clearly improved while we have either stagnated or gone backwards.

Reasonably comfortably? What?

The ABs scraped home at Eden Park last year vs England due to the bench and the ABs were very lucky not to lose at Twickenham last year - Telea's match winning try only occurred because Beauden got subbed off due to injury (so Telea came back on the field after being subbed off). Combine that with George Ford having a shocking bench appearance for England and they missed two late chances to win it themselves (missed penalty which hit the post and a missed drop goal).

Edit - and the opening test of Razor's tenure the ABs won by 1 point in Dunedin.

Yeah fair enough I take your point. If you look at those matches I believe we were leading the majority of the time regardless of the points difference.

I've barely felt comfortable during an entire ABs performance since before the Ireland QF in 2023

@canefan said in England v All Blacks:

@brodean said in England v All Blacks:

@KiwiMurph said in England v All Blacks:

@brodean said in England v All Blacks:

@sparky said in England v All Blacks:

@Dodge England are a damn good side at the moment. Lots of balance to their game, they are really well drilled and confident in what they are doing, they have threat in so many aspects of their play, young guys like Feyi-Waboso, Pollock and Pepper are coming on leaps and bounds at the moment.

The Triple Crown, the Six Nations Title and the Grand Slam are all realistic objectives for England in the spring and making the Nations Championship final and the World Cup Final beyond that.

There was no shame in losing to England.

What there was deep shame in for the All Blacks was the manner of the defeat and the performance that proceeded it. We were way off.

We beat England reasonably comfortably in all 3 games last year. This manner of win shows that England have clearly improved while we have either stagnated or gone backwards.

Reasonably comfortably? What?

The ABs scraped home at Eden Park last year vs England due to the bench and the ABs were very lucky not to lose at Twickenham last year - Telea's match winning try only occurred because Beauden got subbed off due to injury (so Telea came back on the field after being subbed off). Combine that with George Ford having a shocking bench appearance for England and they missed two late chances to win it themselves (missed penalty which hit the post and a missed drop goal).

Edit - and the opening test of Razor's tenure the ABs won by 1 point in Dunedin.

Yeah fair enough I take your point. If you look at those matches I believe we were leading the majority of the time regardless of the points difference.

I've barely felt comfortable during an entire ABs performance since before the Ireland QF in 2023

I thought our loose forwards in the first two tests last year clearly won the contact. Statistically we had the fastest ruck ball in both games.

@game_film said in England v All Blacks:

I honestly think Beauden is calling it after Wales

something in his face as he left the field on sunday gave me the same impression TBH

Moving Jordan, who was the worlds premiere winger, to fullback is such a great example of how these coaches have absolutely no idea what they are doing at test level. Nary a thought for the defensive side of test footy, or the importance of the 15 marshalling the troops from the back, or their ability to be a playmaker, it was just "he did well there at Super look at the tries he scored! Let's put him there for the ABs!!".

Such low IQ stuff. It was so obvious that all of his flaws would get exposed at the back, and so it has come to pass. The only thing worse is that they continue to persist playing him there. The absolute height of idiocy.

The other obvious example already mentioned is moving Rieko on and putting blokes with no defensive ability at 13, only for them to get exposed over and over again. For all the "both sides of the ball" horseshit they trotted out to explain away their ridiculous anti-Blues bias, they don't seem to have any idea what that phrase even means.

@No-Quarter I think that's a bit harsh.

Yes Jordan has glaring weaknesses, but he's no worse than our other options under the high ball. His blinkers and poor passing cause issues on the wing too. He was the best fullback in Super, it's worth a go.
Ioane was not flourishing at 13 last year, and there was a lot of criticism on here. Proctor was outstanding in Super as was Tupaea, and Jordie carved it up up north. Again worth a go.

Having said that, if you try something and it doesn't work, then it fucking well should be changed.

I would say (yet again) that the backs' problems are at 10 and the game plan. If you won't change those, then nobody in the backs is really getting a fair go.

@mariner4life said in England v All Blacks:

@game_film said in England v All Blacks:

I honestly think Beauden is calling it after Wales

something in his face as he left the field on sunday gave me the same impression TBH

But thats also bollox if it happens, even if I want him gone.

We have spent 2 years of this World Cup cycle with him getting the most minutes at ten.

Shows a player and coach not on the same page.

Im sure Hansen was aware McCaw and Carters last rodeo was the 2015 final.

Would Razor pick Beauden as his 10 for two years if he knew he was going mid cycle?

Love/Jacomb/DMAC could have got more minutes.

@reprobate I am not sure it is that harsh, even the casual observer can see the weaknesses in Jordan's game and how they would be far more apparent at 15, just ask @Bones.

The casual observer could also see the huge upside Rieko brought to the team on defense, and could also see that his attacking ability could be much better utilised by giving him a yard of space instead of using him as a crash ball merchant. It was also obvious to the casual observer that Proctor was never going to be suitable for the way they want to use the centre, with the added downside of being much poorer defensively.

Nearly every single issue with the current side that casual observers were pointing out have come to pass. And they came to pass in a BIG way against an English side that didn't even play close to their own potential, without even mentioning all the other record losses under these clowns.

@reprobate said in England v All Blacks:

@No-Quarter I think that's a bit harsh.

I would say (yet again) that the backs' problems are at 10 and the game plan. If you won't change those, then nobody in the backs is really getting a fair go.

That only applies to attack though. Beauden has actually been a reliable tackle this year.

@No-Quarter said in England v All Blacks:

against an English side that didn't even play close to their own potential,

this is it eh. They didn't play well and yet we conceded 33 points.