@pakman said in England v All Blacks:

@pakman said in England v All Blacks:

@Mauss said in England Vs All Blacks:

I thought the Dingwall try was actually quite symbolic for some of the deeper-lying issues within this team. It shows that the players don’t trust each other and that the opposition is generally smarter than them.

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It is honestly an embarrassingly easy score for England: Mitchell throws the long pass to Lawrence, taking out both Taylor and Lakai from the defensive picture. It leaves England and the ABs with a two-on-two: Lawrence and Dingwall against Carter and Tupaea.

There is really no reason for Tupaea to bite in here, unless he doesn’t trust Carter to make the tackle on Lawrence. And that takes us all the way back to the try in the first half, where Carter gets flattened by the English centre. Tupaea gets a flashback, wants to put in a double shot, and then it’s just easy hands at the line for Lawrence. Proctor is far back because he’s covering the English attackers hidden in the boot; he’s trusting his teammates to execute the defensive 2-on-2.

It's smart from England but it is painfully naïve from an AB perspective. Big, individual errors, like Leroy Carter’s in the first half, are a mental challenge for a team. If you’re a good side, you immediately put it behind you and start again. If you’re mentally fragile, it becomes like a domino-effect, influencing your every move and decision from that moment onwards.

After the England Test, I think it’s pretty clear what kind of team these ABs are.

Fragile and lacking composure.

That happened right in front of where I was sitting.

Strikes me positioning of Carter was a bit close to end of lineout. He and Tupaea being another metre wider and Dingwall gap would have been
much narrower.

Dingwall has revealed that a lineout or two before this cock up he and Lawrence had noted a flaw in the AB alignment. They swapped possies to allow Lawrence to run a hard line with Dingwall coming close for the short offload.

if that is true, and they came up with it on the field, it must be the first time in years that England have played heads up rugby where the players have taken responsibility. It also suggests that these two might make a decent centre combo. I'm a bit shocked. I hope that's Blackett's influence

@Dodge said in England v All Blacks:

@pakman said in England v All Blacks:

@pakman said in England v All Blacks:

@Mauss said in England Vs All Blacks:

I thought the Dingwall try was actually quite symbolic for some of the deeper-lying issues within this team. It shows that the players don’t trust each other and that the opposition is generally smarter than them.

View image

It is honestly an embarrassingly easy score for England: Mitchell throws the long pass to Lawrence, taking out both Taylor and Lakai from the defensive picture. It leaves England and the ABs with a two-on-two: Lawrence and Dingwall against Carter and Tupaea.

There is really no reason for Tupaea to bite in here, unless he doesn’t trust Carter to make the tackle on Lawrence. And that takes us all the way back to the try in the first half, where Carter gets flattened by the English centre. Tupaea gets a flashback, wants to put in a double shot, and then it’s just easy hands at the line for Lawrence. Proctor is far back because he’s covering the English attackers hidden in the boot; he’s trusting his teammates to execute the defensive 2-on-2.

It's smart from England but it is painfully naïve from an AB perspective. Big, individual errors, like Leroy Carter’s in the first half, are a mental challenge for a team. If you’re a good side, you immediately put it behind you and start again. If you’re mentally fragile, it becomes like a domino-effect, influencing your every move and decision from that moment onwards.

After the England Test, I think it’s pretty clear what kind of team these ABs are.

Fragile and lacking composure.

That happened right in front of where I was sitting.

Strikes me positioning of Carter was a bit close to end of lineout. He and Tupaea being another metre wider and Dingwall gap would have been
much narrower.

Dingwall has revealed that a lineout or two before this cock up he and Lawrence had noted a flaw in the AB alignment. They swapped possies to allow Lawrence to run a hard line with Dingwall coming close for the short offload.

if that is true, and they came up with it on the field, it must be the first time in years that England have played heads up rugby where the players have taken responsibility. It also suggests that these two might make a decent centre combo. I'm a bit shocked. I hope that's Blackett's influence

If that is true, it's a bit like that "uh-oh. Happy's learned to putt" moment. :hushed_face:

This is why we are where we are.

There is no edge.

I listened to a podcast recently where Conor Murray told an anecdote from his new book of how he tried to go into the Allblacks dressing room to get a jersey swap and Ma'a Nonu was stood outside eating.

He turns to Murray and says "where are you going?" "eh I was going in to swap a shirt" "you're not going in there mate".

Thats Henry Pollock. Englands youngest player, shithouse in chief, and Cortez Ratima is gurning with him for a photo after a rubbish performance himself.

I know im a dinosaur, but I preferred when our boys were aloof, unapproachable, hard nosed, miserable looking bastards.

You are giving Pollock an inch there. It's all cosy. "These Allblack lads are sound".

Imagine Austin Healy sat beside Tana Umaga in the dressing room...........

We are being gaslit by the Allblacks social media team on a weekly basis. Im with Devlin on this.

Footage of Savea sweeping the floor of the dressing room to ethereal sombre music.

The lad spent 80 minutes avoiding tackling and hitting rucks.

@Jet said in England v All Blacks:

View embedded content

We are being gaslit by the Allblacks social media team on a weekly basis. Im with Devlin on this.

Footage of Savea sweeping the floor of the dressing room to ethereal sombre music.

The lad spent 80 minutes avoiding tackling and hitting rucks.

Gotta give it to Ardie to pick himself up off the goalpost looking into the sky to then have the courage to pick up a broom and try and sweep that performance under the rug......

@Jet said in England v All Blacks:

View image

This is why we are where we are.

There is no edge.

I listened to a podcast recently where Conor Murray told an anecdote from his new book of how he tried to go into the Allblacks dressing room to get a jersey swap and Ma'a Nonu was stood outside eating.

He turns to Murray and says "where are you going?" "eh I was going in to swap a shirt" "you're not going in there mate".

Thats Henry Pollock. Englands youngest player, shithouse in chief, and Cortez Ratima is gurning with him for a photo after a rubbish performance himself.

I know im a dinosaur, but I preferred when our boys were aloof, unapproachable, hard nosed, miserable looking bastards.

You are giving Pollock an inch there. It's all cosy. "These Allblack lads are sound".

Imagine Austin Healy sat beside Tana Umaga in the dressing room...........

I don't mind the jersey swapping and beers with the opposition in the changing sheds - it's kinda part of the game. But the photo displaying the back of his jersey showing his name and number proudly screams "teenage fanboi", not "professional competitor".
Notable that Pollock isn't holding up Ratima's jersey and is instead wearing it like he owns it...

@Jet

I have zero problem with Ratima swapping jerseys with Pollock and welcome it. It's always been part of the game since time immemorial. Meads used to take cases of beer into the opposition's dressing room after a game. Said it was how he made so many friends in the game.

I actually find that Nonu story hard to believe. Nonu is/was renowned for fraternising with opposition players and how it was key to his love for the game. So much so, he once broke his arm and made a point of leaving his jersey on his opposite number's peg before heading off to the hospital.

This is why we are where we are.

There is no edge.

I give you Jerome Kaino......

@Jet said in England v All Blacks:

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This is why we are where we are.

There is no edge.

I listened to a podcast recently where Conor Murray told an anecdote from his new book of how he tried to go into the Allblacks dressing room to get a jersey swap and Ma'a Nonu was stood outside eating.

He turns to Murray and says "where are you going?" "eh I was going in to swap a shirt" "you're not going in there mate".

Thats Henry Pollock. Englands youngest player, shithouse in chief, and Cortez Ratima is gurning with him for a photo after a rubbish performance himself.

I know im a dinosaur, but I preferred when our boys were aloof, unapproachable, hard nosed, miserable looking bastards.

You are giving Pollock an inch there. It's all cosy. "These Allblack lads are sound".

Imagine Austin Healy sat beside Tana Umaga in the dressing room...........

Good lord. What a complete load of wank.

Two young players swapped a jersey. A photo was taken of just after it, clearly with little planning.

Hate to tell you this, but if losing teams didn’t want to swap …. You could only do it when you drew.

@Jet said in England v All Blacks:

View image

This is why we are where we are.

There is no edge.

I listened to a podcast recently where Conor Murray told an anecdote from his new book of how he tried to go into the Allblacks dressing room to get a jersey swap and Ma'a Nonu was stood outside eating.

He turns to Murray and says "where are you going?" "eh I was going in to swap a shirt" "you're not going in there mate".

Thats Henry Pollock. Englands youngest player, shithouse in chief, and Cortez Ratima is gurning with him for a photo after a rubbish performance himself.

I know im a dinosaur, but I preferred when our boys were aloof, unapproachable, hard nosed, miserable looking bastards.

You are giving Pollock an inch there. It's all cosy. "These Allblack lads are sound".

Imagine Austin Healy sat beside Tana Umaga in the dressing room...........

Maybe the stupidest post I've ever read on here

Colin meads used to make a point of taking beers into the opposition sheds after the game

@MajorRage said in England v All Blacks:

@Jet said in England v All Blacks:

View image

This is why we are where we are.

There is no edge.

I listened to a podcast recently where Conor Murray told an anecdote from his new book of how he tried to go into the Allblacks dressing room to get a jersey swap and Ma'a Nonu was stood outside eating.

He turns to Murray and says "where are you going?" "eh I was going in to swap a shirt" "you're not going in there mate".

Thats Henry Pollock. Englands youngest player, shithouse in chief, and Cortez Ratima is gurning with him for a photo after a rubbish performance himself.

I know im a dinosaur, but I preferred when our boys were aloof, unapproachable, hard nosed, miserable looking bastards.

You are giving Pollock an inch there. It's all cosy. "These Allblack lads are sound".

Imagine Austin Healy sat beside Tana Umaga in the dressing room...........

Good lord. What a complete load of wank.

Two young players swapped a jersey. A photo was taken of just after it, clearly with little planning.

Hate to tell you this, but if losing teams didn’t want to swap …. You could only do it when you drew.

You're misreading me.

You go and hand the jersey, shake the hand and walk away. Maybe do it in corridor.

It shouldnt be ceremonial. You shouldnt be smiling. You should be filthy. You avoid a photo if possible.

Ratima looks like someone who won a prize to be there.

All these little percentages of beta behaviour are compounding.

We used to be aresholes, sure, but we were winners.

@SammyC said in England v All Blacks:

@Jet said in England v All Blacks:

View image

This is why we are where we are.

There is no edge.

I listened to a podcast recently where Conor Murray told an anecdote from his new book of how he tried to go into the Allblacks dressing room to get a jersey swap and Ma'a Nonu was stood outside eating.

He turns to Murray and says "where are you going?" "eh I was going in to swap a shirt" "you're not going in there mate".

Thats Henry Pollock. Englands youngest player, shithouse in chief, and Cortez Ratima is gurning with him for a photo after a rubbish performance himself.

I know im a dinosaur, but I preferred when our boys were aloof, unapproachable, hard nosed, miserable looking bastards.

You are giving Pollock an inch there. It's all cosy. "These Allblack lads are sound".

Imagine Austin Healy sat beside Tana Umaga in the dressing room...........

Maybe the stupidest post I've ever read on here

Colin meads used to make a point of taking beers into the opposition sheds after the game

Pre social media. Pre camera phones. Pre professionalism.

Ratima is like Henry Pollocks nephew there.

Its like Kolisi with his arm around young Sititi saying "im so proud of him".

Kolisi should be spat out the back of a ruck covered in stud marks. We dont need your patronage mate.

@Victor-Meldrew said in England v All Blacks:

@Jet

I have zero problem with Ratima swapping jerseys with Pollock and welcome it. It's always been part of the game since time immemorial. Meads used to take cases of beer into the opposition's dressing room after a game. Said it was how he made so many friends in the game.

I actually find that Nonu story hard to believe. Nonu is/was renowned for fraternising with opposition players and how it was key to his love for the game. So much so, he once broke his arm and made a point of leaving his jersey on his opposite number's peg before heading off to the hospital.

This is why we are where we are.

There is no edge.

I give you Jerome Kaino......

View image

Nonu story 21:47 mins in this podcast.

I just relistened. He said they are notorious for not letting people in to their dressing room. But they come into yours. They didnt swap after Chicago. Conor Murray tells the story of how it was O'Mahoney going in to get McCaws jersey after the 60-0 drubbing in Hamilton in 2012 and Nonu refused him entry.

I don't mind them making friendly after the match. That is the way it is today. As long as we smashed the crap out of them on the pitch first. I'm not sure it's about lack of effort for many of our players. It all starts with selection and game plan to give our best combination of players the chance to excel

@SammyC said in England v All Blacks:

@Jet said in England v All Blacks:

View image

This is why we are where we are.

There is no edge.

I listened to a podcast recently where Conor Murray told an anecdote from his new book of how he tried to go into the Allblacks dressing room to get a jersey swap and Ma'a Nonu was stood outside eating.

He turns to Murray and says "where are you going?" "eh I was going in to swap a shirt" "you're not going in there mate".

Thats Henry Pollock. Englands youngest player, shithouse in chief, and Cortez Ratima is gurning with him for a photo after a rubbish performance himself.

I know im a dinosaur, but I preferred when our boys were aloof, unapproachable, hard nosed, miserable looking bastards.

You are giving Pollock an inch there. It's all cosy. "These Allblack lads are sound".

Imagine Austin Healy sat beside Tana Umaga in the dressing room...........

Maybe the stupidest post I've ever read on here

Colin meads used to make a point of taking beers into the opposition sheds after the game

ABs have almost always invited opposition in for a beer , remember McCaw and Jerry Collins talking about it. I like it, I of the old school where you beat the shit out of each other and as soon as whistle goes you all mate playing same sport!
I know one of reasons that Umaga and Gregan both ended up playing for Toulon, they talked about playing in same team while having beers after a test.

@Dan54 said in England v All Blacks:

@SammyC said in England v All Blacks:

@Jet said in England v All Blacks:

View image

This is why we are where we are.

There is no edge.

I listened to a podcast recently where Conor Murray told an anecdote from his new book of how he tried to go into the Allblacks dressing room to get a jersey swap and Ma'a Nonu was stood outside eating.

He turns to Murray and says "where are you going?" "eh I was going in to swap a shirt" "you're not going in there mate".

Thats Henry Pollock. Englands youngest player, shithouse in chief, and Cortez Ratima is gurning with him for a photo after a rubbish performance himself.

I know im a dinosaur, but I preferred when our boys were aloof, unapproachable, hard nosed, miserable looking bastards.

You are giving Pollock an inch there. It's all cosy. "These Allblack lads are sound".

Imagine Austin Healy sat beside Tana Umaga in the dressing room...........

Maybe the stupidest post I've ever read on here

Colin meads used to make a point of taking beers into the opposition sheds after the game

ABs have almost always invited opposition in for a beer , remember McCaw and Jerry Collins talking about it. I like it, I of the old school where you beat the shit out of each other and as soon as whistle goes you all mate playing same sport!

It's one of the great things about rugby. Unlike say football fans, rugby fans of all teams are generally happy to have a chat anytime

Social media is a big part of today's game, look at Ardie, that dance by the English players, yep dinosaur, dont have to like it, but it is part of the game and won't.be going away.

@taniwharugby said in England v All Blacks:

Social media is a big part of today's game, look at Ardie, that dance by the English players, yep dinosaur, dont have to like it, but it is part of the game and won't.be going away.

Yep, and I am what is probably labelled a dinosaur, but bugger me, we need to see these posts . So Ardie sweeping the floor f*** anyone who it upsets, same as Pollock and mates dancing, I like the kids has a personality. We need these things in our game!

@canefan said in England v All Blacks:

@Dan54 said in England v All Blacks:

@SammyC said in England v All Blacks:

@Jet said in England v All Blacks:

View image

This is why we are where we are.

There is no edge.

I listened to a podcast recently where Conor Murray told an anecdote from his new book of how he tried to go into the Allblacks dressing room to get a jersey swap and Ma'a Nonu was stood outside eating.

He turns to Murray and says "where are you going?" "eh I was going in to swap a shirt" "you're not going in there mate".

Thats Henry Pollock. Englands youngest player, shithouse in chief, and Cortez Ratima is gurning with him for a photo after a rubbish performance himself.

I know im a dinosaur, but I preferred when our boys were aloof, unapproachable, hard nosed, miserable looking bastards.

You are giving Pollock an inch there. It's all cosy. "These Allblack lads are sound".

Imagine Austin Healy sat beside Tana Umaga in the dressing room...........

Maybe the stupidest post I've ever read on here

Colin meads used to make a point of taking beers into the opposition sheds after the game

ABs have almost always invited opposition in for a beer , remember McCaw and Jerry Collins talking about it. I like it, I of the old school where you beat the shit out of each other and as soon as whistle goes you all mate playing same sport!

It's one of the great things about rugby. Unlike say football fans, rugby fans of all teams are generally happy to have a chat anytime

Yep mate, one of reasons I really enjoy going to tests is before and after games in a pub , I will generally try and have beers with opposition supporters, it just part of why I have always followed our game, I in general enjoy the company of rugby people!

@Dan54 IIRC the floor sweeping thing has always been a part of what these guys did, but add in the SM and you have today's game.

@taniwharugby said in England v All Blacks:

@Dan54 IIRC the floor sweeping thing has always been a part of what these guys did, but add in the SM and you have today's game.

Motive is the thing right.

Sweeping the floors because it's what you do, you tidy up after yourself is one thing. Performative sweeping to make social media posts about it sucks.

Feels like early on it was clearly the former. No idea any more, I'd like to given them the benefit of the doubt, but anyone calling attention to doing scut work with social media posts makes me a bit uneasy. And I freely acknowledge I don't like SM and am a generation or two removed from the lads these days.

@nzzp yeah I think that's it for us Inbetweeners - it's performative. Virtue signalling. It's very hard to detour around the fakeness of it all.

@Jet said in England v All Blacks:

I just relistened. He said they are notorious for not letting people in to their dressing room. But they come into yours. They didnt swap after Chicago. Conor Murray tells the story of how it was O'Mahoney going in to get McCaws jersey after the 60-0 drubbing in Hamilton in 2012 and Nonu refused him entry.

Sounds like complete horseshit to me. McCaw's AB's were known for getting together with the opposition - giving presentations to new caps playing against them and post-match public presentations to opposing players reaching 100 Tests (Habana, Slipper, AWJ etc)

@Victor-Meldrew did McCaw play in 2016?

@Jet said in England v All Blacks:

Its like Kolisi with his arm around young Sititi saying "im so proud of him".

Kolisi should be spat out the back of a ruck covered in stud marks. We dont need your patronage mate

Jeez mate, better turn your TV off right after the final whistle. You'll be shocked by the number of players hugging the opposition.

@Bones said in England v All Blacks:

@Victor-Meldrew did McCaw play in 2016?

He did in 2012 which is what Conor Murray is referring to.

@Victor-Meldrew said in England v All Blacks:

@Bones said in England v All Blacks:

@Victor-Meldrew did McCaw play in 2016?

He did in 2012 which is what Conor Murray is referring to.

So AWJ isn't who I think it is?

And Slipper isn't Ben Slipper?

@Bones said in England v All Blacks:

And Slipper isn't Ben Slipper?

No. His brother Clutch

I can see where Jet is getting annoyed. I think most of us would agree being friendly with the opposition, the odd photo and social media post is fine, after a top quality performance on the field. And that’s the issue - some of these guys are walking around during games like they couldn’t care less, seem like they’re not worried following a loss and don’t go into the next game with a point to prove. There are a few factors contributing to this but it’s painful to watch.

@Jet said in England v All Blacks:

View image

This is why we are where we are.

There is no edge.

I listened to a podcast recently where Conor Murray told an anecdote from his new book of how he tried to go into the Allblacks dressing room to get a jersey swap and Ma'a Nonu was stood outside eating.

He turns to Murray and says "where are you going?" "eh I was going in to swap a shirt" "you're not going in there.

I think that story is total bollocks.

The All Blacks are famous the Rugby world over for their hospitality after the game.

@ShaquilleOatmeal

Yeah, I'm equally annoyed with heartless performances of late.

But I'd be more annoyed if the players added to that shitty-ness by not fraternising with the opposition

@Victor-Meldrew said in England v All Blacks:

@Bones said in England v All Blacks:

And Slipper isn't Ben Slipper?

No. His brother Clutch

I'm really struggling to reconcile someone calling another post horseshit when their own post talks about RM celebrating players hitting their hundred after RM retired, in some cases many years. What am I misreading?

@nzzp if you sweep the floor after a game and no one is there to record it for SM, did you really sweep it?

@Victor-Meldrew There's a long passage in McCaw's book that says his attitude was before and during the game it was binary. Your job was to win and make the opposition lose.

After the game, you're all Rugby players together and it's time to forge friendships.

Long may those values continue. The game is bigger than any player, even the . It's bigger than any team.

Cheikas Wallabies refused to mix in the sheds post match if I recall.

@Bones said in England v All Blacks:

@Victor-Meldrew said in England v All Blacks:

@Bones said in England v All Blacks:

And Slipper isn't Ben Slipper?

No. His brother Clutch

I'm really struggling to reconcile someone calling another post horseshit when their own post talks about RM celebrating players hitting their hundred after RM retired, in some cases many years. What am I misreading?

The original post

"Conor Murray tells the story of how it was O'Mahoney going in to get McCaws jersey after the 60-0 drubbing in Hamilton in 2012 and Nonu refused him entry.

@Victor-Meldrew said in England v All Blacks:

@Bones said in England v All Blacks:

@Victor-Meldrew said in England v All Blacks:

@Bones said in England v All Blacks:

And Slipper isn't Ben Slipper?

No. His brother Clutch

I'm really struggling to reconcile someone calling another post horseshit when their own post talks about RM celebrating players hitting their hundred after RM retired, in some cases many years. What am I misreading?

The original post

"Conor Murray tells the story of how it was O'Mahoney going in to get McCaws jersey after the 60-0 drubbing in Hamilton in 2012 and Nonu refused him entry.

Your response.

McCaw's AB's were known for getting together with the opposition - giving presentations to new caps playing against them and post-match public presentations to opposing players reaching 100 Tests (Habana, Slipper, AWJ etc)

Mils saying the All Blacks are disconnected and were fatigued at Twickenham, but dancing around whether Robertson should be dumped.

And I'm not sure what McCaw's ABs were doing at a test match between SA and AUS in 2014.

Well that was an argument that polarised things wasn't it?

FWIW, my two pennyworth.

Win, lose or draw. You act with dignity. You don't decide whether to swap shirts, have a beer or a chat with the opposition dependent upon the result or how sulky your fans might be in their judgement of your "commitment".

The Nonu story? I don't know if it is true or not but from what I have come to expect from the man, it was firstly, unlikely and secondly if it was true then he would have had a good reason to be that unreasonable.

The TikTok dance thing: well it turns out that the TikTok dances were actually fines for whatever made up misdemeanours hade been judged upon, the Freeman one got exposure whereas all the others got binned pretty quickly. In today's SM world, once it's out there, then it's out there.

The Savea floor sweeping? Haven't seen it, don't want to see it, but if it is an "official" AB fluff piece that is on NZR and not on Savea.

In short boys and girls, have a bit of understanding, judge the guys on their performances by all means but let them be normal guys after the game.