All Blacks vs Springboks II

@stodders said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Second half slumps continue. The days of the ABs running teams down in the last 20 are done. The supposedly “bigger” Boks have finished the last 2 matches (and the 2 last year in SA) with all the momentum.

ABs have no ability to wrest control when they lose it. They play fine when they have control. Saw it against Argentina and now against Boks. Overplaying, poor decision making - call it what you will. But test match pressure is crushing the AB leaders and decision makers. Mistake upon mistake compounds and the pressure rises. Rather than reset and going back to basics, they try for the next Hail Mary….with obvious consequences they don’t work.

This is the nadir of the last few years. Some really big decisions need to be made.

The greats like McCaw and Carter used to grind out a hard won 20 metres and do it again.
Dinks are a cop out.

@canefan said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@Dan54 said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Anyway women up in our hotel room in Wellington, and I still pissed at what I saw. I actually said to Mrs, that could save us some money, as I feel I won't probably bother to coming to a test again. I can handle us losing, but not thinking an AB team pulled the plug with 15 minutes to go. If I see any press conference and Razor or anyone makes excuses, apart from pointing out how bad they seem to of been coached and played, I will kick the tv. And I can't afford a new one!

This is such a negative post by your standards Dan, a huge indictment on the team. They have failed us all

I know mate, as a matter of principle, I try to avoid being negative, in here ( or any forum), but like most of us I am hurting!

@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@Tim said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@ACT-Crusader The new Clyde Rathbone?

Ethan Hooker. He attacked the line and competed in the air.

Have to admit when he had the ball I was getting confused by the commentary. I really am stupid.

The other thing, I noticed once we got close to halftime , and until end of game, if we did anything to look at getting a head of steam up, a Bok would go down injured. I know it's a piss off etc, but I never saw Scooter get in refs ear. I was sitting just in front a few touring Bok supporters who laughed and said it was there game. We weren't arguing etc, just agreeing, and the bottom line is if our captain etc are doing job, we should stay switched on anyway!
Was noticeable that they had a wterboy on sideling, conveying message non stop, he would use hand signals, and quite often just hold uo a number of fingers. Again why not us?

@NTA f*ck does that mean we can still win it.

@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Hard to fathom for most of you after such a drubbing but better decisions and ball retention and this match is very, very different

The game plan is a far bigger problem than cattle

I agree.
However we need a captain. It's obvious.
Roigard will make a big difference.
We need a 10.

@tubbyj said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@canefan said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@kidcalder said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@game_film Not sure Sotutu is the answer

One player isn't the answer. Our inability to clinically perform fundamentals such as kick receptions, line outs and scrums seems to be increasingly apparent as games go on. Sometimes we scrape home, this time we got pumped. Fault lies with the everyone from the coaches to the players. There are some fundamental problems in how we are approaching the game at the moment. And we have a coach who is impeding the progress of the whole group because of his selections

I think we have seen the importance of having quality players across your whole 23. Or at the minimum players who can perform their core role and let others shine..

Seriously how does someone like Brodie McCallister get selected for the All Blacks with problematic lineout throwing? Why was this not noted after his debut or picked up at practice this week? It is like a time warp back to Anton Oliver where core roles are not a big deal if you are a good bloke and rugged team man.

There were two very poor throws, then another stuff up on the lift, and then one he hit Holland.

Yes it’s disappointing but Anton was our first choice hooker when those woes occurred. Brodie is 4th choice. Also we have a long history of hookers not being great at hitting a target when they first become ABs. ADM, Sami, Hammett, even Mealamu was pot luck.

@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@brodean said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

So far we've had the 2nd worst defence in the comp.

The defensive workrate of our primary 7 leads a lot to be desired.

Completed Tackles per 80 Minutes
17.26 Parker
14.31 Lio Willie
13.55 Kirifi
12.88 Finau
11.05 Sititi
10.43 Vaa'i
10.2 Savea

Lowest defensive workrate of the loose forwards.

Also Tupou Vaa'i's tackle success this season is 77% which is shocking for a loose forward/lock even at NPC level.

I dont understand why Lio Willie wasn't fully selected in the squad to start with and when he did play well vs France why he didnt make the squad for The Rugby Championship. Instead foodbill Jacobson takes up a spot whilst Razor rotates 8 between Savea, Parker and Sititi

I understand he's a tad small in an ideal world but in terms of what we have I thought he got shafted.

He is small but he has a well balanced game and he seemed good enough to compete with the French forwards who though no the best were still physical.

I just do not fu@@cking understand
We all knew the Boks would bring fire to the scrums,would try to dominate line outs and would coat the ball with snow when they kicked
....
.
And they did and here we sit sucking our thumbs
This defeat has been coming for a while though

@Dan54 said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@canefan said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@Dan54 said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Anyway women up in our hotel room in Wellington, and I still pissed at what I saw. I actually said to Mrs, that could save us some money, as I feel I won't probably bother to coming to a test again. I can handle us losing, but not thinking an AB team pulled the plug with 15 minutes to go. If I see any press conference and Razor or anyone makes excuses, apart from pointing out how bad they seem to of been coached and played, I will kick the tv. And I can't afford a new one!

This is such a negative post by your standards Dan, a huge indictment on the team. They have failed us all

I know mate, as a matter of principle, I try to avoid being negative, in here ( or any forum), but like most of us I am hurting!

I woke up in the middle of the night, remembered what happened, and was shocked. Could hardly believe it.

@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@NTA f*ck does that mean we can still win it.

Looks to me like anyone can.

Boks have to be favourites tho after last night and games to come at Kings Park and ?Twickenham??

I'm expecting the ABs to roar back into it with a backlash performance at Eden Park, then Perth will determine if they're a shot.

@Dan54 said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

The other thing, I noticed once we got close to halftime , and until end of game, if we did anything to look at getting a head of steam up, a Bok would go down injured. I know it's a piss off etc, but I never saw Scooter get in refs ear. I was sitting just in front a few touring Bok supporters who laughed and said it was there game. We weren't arguing etc, just agreeing, and the bottom line is if our captain etc are doing job, we should stay switched on anyway!
Was noticeable that they had a wterboy on sideling, conveying message non stop, he would use hand signals, and quite often just hold uo a number of fingers. Again why not us?

Same thing in the BF game. Their big fatties went down periodically with some "injury". Out comes the ice bag and the others are there sucking in the big ones

@booboo

1. Thought Proctor had his best game in black. Not a massively high bar, but saw the glimmerings of promise.

Mate, if his best game includes throwing Kolbe a dog biscuit we’re in trouble.

@game_film said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@booboo

1. Thought Proctor had his best game in black. Not a massively high bar, but saw the glimmerings of promise.

Mate, if his best game includes throwing Kolbe a dog biscuit we’re in trouble.

I'm a fan. But some guys look born ready for the big stage, and I'm not sure he does. Doesn't look any better than Rieko so far, and at least Rieko was a watertight defender

@NTA said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@NTA f*ck does that mean we can still win it.

Looks to me like anyone can.

Boks have to be favourites tho after last night and games to come at Kings Park and ?Twickenham??

I'm expecting the ABs to roar back into it with a backlash performance at Eden Park, then Perth will determine if they're a shot.

We have been very good for periods. Generally early in a game. But our second half performances have generally been poo. If we can't put enough points on your lot in the first half you should have a chance to pass us down the stretch

@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

self-proclaimed visionary

Amongst a heap of flashing orange lights in that write-up... that's a massive red one.

This post-mortem from Two Cents Rugby is as good as anything I've seen and heard outside the Fern since yesterday's disaster.

Only thing I don't like is an All Blacks fan wearing a Springbok jersey. Let the Boks enjoy their triumph and our moment of total humiliation, don't jump on their band wagon.

@sparky He's not jumping on the bandwagon - he always wears the jersey of the lowest ranked team (going into the game)

Although, I have a spare Bok jersey for ya

Just watched the 2nd half again. Williams saved two tries with his sheer pace, he's a freakish talent. The number of X factor backs the Boks have now is scary. In the past you just had to gain parity with their pack and you had them beat, now their backs can create opportunities from all over the field even if you nullify their pack. They are the complete package now.

@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

I didn't watch yesterday, so knowing the score and reading the thread I actually expected much worse.

I thought at half time both coaches would have been very happy. We were by far the better team, imposed ourselves and were in front. They had been outplayed but were close.

Huge turning point in that first half was we have an attacking lineout off that awesome BB kick, they have backs down all over the place. Who ever our retard of a lineout caller is, calls an overly complicated lineout, the ref lets thrm close the gap an upset our pod, turnover followed by THAT DMac chip kick. Chance to establish a big lead gone in like 30 seconds.

2nd half again we were actually really good for 29 minutes. Bok try was brilliant off that scrum, but we're in touch. Then two things happen at the same time. We sub a midfielder on our line, and once again our lineout call is idiotic. Try.

The next 4 minutes is an absolute horror show. 2 will Jordan errors, a shocker of a BB kick. Just low IQ rugby. And it never recovers.

South Africa though, wow. That 2nd half was perfect. Fast, accurate and brutal. What should concern everyone in NZ is i do not believe this AB team has that level of rugby in them. Maybe only France do TBH.

Absolute horror show last quarter for us. Absolutely sublime for South Africa. Well done to them I'm very fucking impressed.

Belter of a post.

Huge factor in this game was how Boks staff work was excellent while ABs’ was pretty average - that midfield sub being just one example.

@PN Give the spare jersey to a South African youngster instead of me, they have EVERY reason to feel proud and be inspired by THEIR team this weekend. They were awesome.

@booboo said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

4. He's got to find the courage to drop Barrett

SB? BB?

@akan004 said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Williams saved two tries with his sheer pace

Tamaiti is fast for a big boy, but not that fast...

@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Cannot believe in the press conference Razor basically said 'SA practice their aerial game a lot and we can't handle it'. Seriously.

No fucking way?!

All the evidence points to that being the case, but that it actually is and he actually admitted it has me shocked. I think it would actually be better if he just came out and said that our guys are just cowards when it comes to taking high balls (which is what I thought was the actual explanation).

@Dan54
Dan - this has frustrated me for so long. We want to be the Corinthians of rugby but we just need to be more cynical. As others have said - someone gets hit high make the ref/tmo think about it etc - it's not a great look but most top tier nations do it with some success.

Number crunching that game based on the stats on Rugby Pass.

What stands out.

Terrible tackle percentage. 71%
Terrible line out percentage: 69%
Low tackle numbers by the back row. Ardie Savea on 9, Simon Parker and Wallace Sititi on 6. Jordie Barrett (11) and Billy Proctor (10) made the most tackles.

Nine line breaks made but only one of those resulted in a try. South Africa had six tries from eleven line breaks.

I think what Robertson was doing with backrow was all wrong.

@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Sad but we're a paper tiger now. Interesting that our own decline mirrors (at least in my view) the decline of the game as any type of spectacle that's worth watching.

Seems to also mirror the SA teams withdrawing from Super Rugby

@Devon-Kiwi said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Sad but we're a paper tiger now. Interesting that our own decline mirrors (at least in my view) the decline of the game as any type of spectacle that's worth watching.

Seems to also mirror the SA teams withdrawing from Super Rugby

Been going on for longer than that. SA leaving is a red herring IMO. The loss of the middle tier of experienced pros from NZ rugby to Europe and Japan has had a far more damaging effect long term.

These weren’t guys that would have played for the ABs, but they brought the young guys through and instilled the work ethic and culture of excellence that is now lacking in NZ rugby.

@stodders said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@Devon-Kiwi said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Sad but we're a paper tiger now. Interesting that our own decline mirrors (at least in my view) the decline of the game as any type of spectacle that's worth watching.

Seems to also mirror the SA teams withdrawing from Super Rugby

Been going on for longer than that. SA leaving is a red herring IMO. The loss of the middle tier of experienced pros from NZ rugby to Europe and Japan has had a far more damaging effect long term.

These weren’t guys that would have played for the ABs, but they brought the young guys through and instilled the work ethic and culture of excellence that is now lacking in NZ rugby.

We have over the hill guys and young guys.

The guys in the middle of their career foxtrot Oscar if they dont get picked for the Allblacks early on.

So we have rookies and a cozy cadre of incumbents who are almost guaranteed selection.

@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

This one quote sums up his approach perfectly: “I don’t motivate people, I inspire people to be motivated”

I just snorted chocolate milk out my nose.

And I wasn't even drinking chocolate milk.

As it happens I'm reading Fozzie's book at the moment, and this sort of thing seems to align with the change in thinking in the NZR Halls Of Power: the commercial team are holding the reins and Corporate is the only language they speak.

@junior said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Cannot believe in the press conference Razor basically said 'SA practice their aerial game a lot and we can't handle it'. Seriously.

No fucking way?!

All the evidence points to that being the case, but that it actually is and he actually admitted it has me shocked. I think it would actually be better if he just came out and said that our guys are just cowards when it comes to taking high balls (which is what I thought was the actual explanation).

When Razor was first appointed I was pleased. That kind of comment at any level is a disgrace, let alone this level.
With comments like that and this inconsistency I have lost all faith in him and the coaching staff.
No sure if it is now possible but we still have 2 years before the next world cup. Still time for change me thinks !!!

One thing that's very easy to fix.

Start Dalton Papali'i at 7 in the Bledisloe. He managed 19.2 tackles per 80 minutes for the Blues this season.

Those extra hits would have been damn useful on Saturday when so much else turned to custard.

@NTA said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

And I wasn't even drinking chocolate milk.

Someone's been tootling the rusty trombone.

@junior said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Cannot believe in the press conference Razor basically said 'SA practice their aerial game a lot and we can't handle it'. Seriously.

No fucking way?!

All the evidence points to that being the case, but that it actually is and he actually admitted it has me shocked. I think it would actually be better if he just came out and said that our guys are just cowards when it comes to taking high balls (which is what I thought was the actual explanation).

I am probably missing something here, but I don't get why people are upset about this comment. It's true, isn't it?

Also, do you really think it's a good idea for him to say publicly the players are cowards? If he hasn't lost the dressing room already, he will if he says something like that.

@sparky said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

One thing that's very easy to fix.

Start Dalton Papali'i at 7 in the Bledisloe. He managed 19.2 tackles per 80 minutes for the Blues this season.

Those extra hits would have been damn useful on Saturday when so much else turned to custard.

Closest player to Cane on the circuit you reckon?

@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@junior said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Cannot believe in the press conference Razor basically said 'SA practice their aerial game a lot and we can't handle it'. Seriously.

No fucking way?!

All the evidence points to that being the case, but that it actually is and he actually admitted it has me shocked. I think it would actually be better if he just came out and said that our guys are just cowards when it comes to taking high balls (which is what I thought was the actual explanation).

I am probably missing something here, but I don't get why people are upset about this comment. It's true, isn't it?

Also, do you really think it's a good idea for him to say publicly the players are cowards? If he hasn't lost the dressing room already, he will if he says something like that.

To me it feels like passing the buck.

'Well I only have the players for a dozen or so weeks every year, if Kiwis aren't good under the high ball and South Africa are then there's not a whole lot I can do about it.'

On the other hand, it also shows that the All Blacks knew exactly what to expect and still had no idea how to defuse it. Didn't pick the best wing in the squad under the high ball, stuck a player who's historically struggled under the high ball at fullback (McKenzie's skills are above average but he's always been disadvantaged due to his height and one half decent game there last week shouldn't have convinced anyone that he's the best man suited to dealing with the Boks bombs).

So either way, a little bit weak on his behalf.

Can we stop using height as an excuse? Besides which, it felt like DMac dealt with the high ball the best of everyone. Certainly better than the 6'+ other wingers in the squad have.

@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@junior said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Cannot believe in the press conference Razor basically said 'SA practice their aerial game a lot and we can't handle it'. Seriously.

No fucking way?!

All the evidence points to that being the case, but that it actually is and he actually admitted it has me shocked. I think it would actually be better if he just came out and said that our guys are just cowards when it comes to taking high balls (which is what I thought was the actual explanation).

I am probably missing something here, but I don't get why people are upset about this comment. It's true, isn't it?

Also, do you really think it's a good idea for him to say publicly the players are cowards? If he hasn't lost the dressing room already, he will if he says something like that.

To me it feels like passing the buck.

'Well I only have the players for a dozen or so weeks every year, if Kiwis aren't good under the high ball and South Africa are then there's not a whole lot I can do about it.'

On the other hand, it also shows that the All Blacks knew exactly what to expect and still had no idea how to defuse it. Didn't pick the best wing in the squad under the high ball, stuck a player who's historically struggled under the high ball at fullback (McKenzie's skills are above average but he's always been disadvantaged due to his height and one half decent game there last week shouldn't have convinced anyone that he's the best man suited to dealing with the Boks bombs).

So either way, a little bit weak on his behalf.

They did know how to diffuse it, the're not stupid. They just weren't good enough. SA have been fine tuning that part of their game for a while now. NZ has been a bit challenged in mastering that at all levels. A bit like the 'rush' defence, and exits...

And drop goals