England v All Blacks

@jimmyb said in England Vs All Blacks:

@hikastags said in England Vs All Blacks:

Who do you think should be the coach? Serious question.
You guys make me laugh. #2 in the world and acting like it’s the end of the world. It can be far worse believe me.

Jamie Jo or Vern Cotter. Even if one got added in as an assistant.

#2 in the world but we are definitely mediocre right now.

Oh yes two coaches with shit super rugby campaigns and average tier 2 international results. Yes please!

Blues won it last year and had a fair few injuries this year. At least he has international experience and an identity for how he likes to play, unlike Razor.

@Billy-Webb Purely thinking as a short term consultant here. 2027 it’s Rennie or JJ unless Surfboard Jesus turns it around.

@hikastags said in England Vs All Blacks:

@jimmyb said in England Vs All Blacks:

@hikastags said in England Vs All Blacks:

Who do you think should be the coach? Serious question.
You guys make me laugh. #2 in the world and acting like it’s the end of the world. It can be far worse believe me.

Jamie Jo or Vern Cotter. Even if one got added in as an assistant.

#2 in the world but we are definitely mediocre right now.

Oh yes two coaches with shit super rugby campaigns and average tier 2 international results. Yes please!

Blues won it last year and had a fair few injuries this year. At least he has international experience and an identity for how he likes to play, unlike Razor.

Yes the one year everyone was fighting for the scraps while the crusaders sorted themselves out. His style is loosing, ask Scotland

@jimmyb said in England Vs All Blacks:

The issues with this team were obvious in the semi final loss against England in 2019 and they’re almost identical to what they are now. Absolutely nothing has changed. Literally nothing

I think this is important.

We have a leadership team because we want them to lead the side, discipline, install All blacks standards and uphold the legacy. They are their because of their experience and mental strength when times are tough and things arent going our way.

Over the last 6 years, the all Blacks have endured many ‘firsts’ and created unwanted history.

Quite frequently it has been a turbulent time and i just wonder if some of our leadership team have been too scarred by record losses they have been involved in. We have seen us go into our shell when the game gets tough, we have seen us give up against the boks, they were part of losing 2 world cups.

These kind of losses impact players and families lives because it affects a nation - look at the Irish series and the foster sack debacle. For any player that would have been difficult to deal with.

The old saying is ‘what doesnt kill you makes you stronger’ but in our case, im not so sure. i just wonder if the experience we are clinging onto within the team is the wrong experience due to players dealing with the pressures of being the first AB team to lose a series against Ireland, first to lose to Argentina etc etc and its having a negative impact on the side and the younger players in the team.

@game_film said in England Vs All Blacks:

@MN5 I think Beauden is smart enough to go out on his own terms. I reckon he calls it when he lands back home.

4 tries short of Howletts record and a few caps shy of Whitelocks cap record. Im not sure.

Him and Savea should have been in the Willie Le Roux role now. Showing the nippers where their skin folds should be, knocking the late nights on the head when they see it getting out of hand and maybe give them the odd cameo.

We cannot continue to build a team around this pair.

All Blacks have responded well from loses this year. Lost to Argentina destroyed SA at Eden Park. Lost to SA smashed the Wallabies next week. Wales should prepare for black lash

@rewa267 said in England Vs All Blacks:

All Blacks have responded well from loses this year. Lost to Argentina destroyed SA at Eden Park. Lost to SA smashed the Wallabies next week. Wales should prepare for black lash

Yeah but Wales are so poor they’re hardly a gauge. If the ABs lose that one every single member of the touring party should go full Keith Murdoch and never show their faces again.

Blues won it last year and had a fair few injuries this year. At least he has international experience and an identity for how he likes to play, unlike Razor.

Yes the one year everyone was fighting for the scraps while the crusaders sorted themselves out. His style is loosing, ask Scotland

He has far more talented players to work with here than in Scotland.

He bought a forward focused game and mongrel to the Blues which they'd been lacking for decades. Ironically, the All Blacks don't have mongrel and lack a hard edge.

@rewa267 said in England Vs All Blacks:

All Blacks have responded well from loses this year. Lost to Argentina destroyed SA at Eden Park. Lost to SA smashed the Wallabies next week. Wales should prepare for black lash

Wales are currently struggling to put away Japan.

@hikastags said in England Vs All Blacks:

Blues won it last year and had a fair few injuries this year. At least he has international experience and an identity for how he likes to play, unlike Razor.

Yes the one year everyone was fighting for the scraps while the crusaders sorted themselves out. His style is loosing, ask Scotland

He has far more talented players to work with here than in Scotland.

He bought a forward focused game and mongrel to the Blues which they'd been lacking for decades. Ironically, the All Blacks don't have mongrel and lack a hard edge.

He’s not the answer, none of the present coaches in NZ will do any better

@rewa267 said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Victor-Meldrew problem is razor being burnt from experience players lack of discipline Cody Taylor this week. Ardie last week.

That's his problem and no-one else's. It's his job and what he's paid to sort out

Pre Foster South Africa were way more ill disciplined.

Not sure what SA discipline history has to do with Foster

@rewa267 yes we'll put 50 or more on poor wales, but doesn't change the fact we've arguably regressed?? I believe we defeated England 4 times last year and today we lost by 13+ to them... it makes me sick really

@Steven-Harris said in England Vs All Blacks:

@jimmyb you are correct
The discipline is as bad as it was under the back end of Hansen,Foster and now Robinson and it has’nt improved under the later
The aimless high kick and cross kick game still a major problem under all 3 coaches

I think a lot of it comes down to BB being immune to being dropped - aimless, low percentage kicking has been his bread and butter for years now.

The bigger problem of the above is that our forwards win enough ball to expect the backs to progress the game or even score - these moments are not that common and when they are duly wasted on yet another feckless BB kick you have to wonder what it takes to roll the dice on some of the younger options

@Mattasaurus yes our forwards can go the distance with anyone.
Our captaincy, 10 and game plan is AWOL.

Im thoroughly dejected.

So disappointed in the whole entity.

It really did'nt need to go like this.

That was shit, and it started with Robertson’s shit selections and tactics.

Proctor has shown absolutely nothing in his many chances at centre, where Tupaea and LF have done well as a combo in their short time together. Breaking that up and selecting Proctor again was a huge mistake.

We went from playing at depth and finding space last week, to the flat footed shit, passing to someone else who is flat footed.

The last 10 of the first half cost us that game.

Beauden Barrett, not once but twice, fucking TWICE missing touch from penalties which put us deep inside their 22. Changed the whole game. Even if we don’t score, England are pinned in their own end and can’t kick 2x drop kicks. That’s inexcusable, he should have been pulled off straight after the 2nd one.

And why the fuck are we taking taps from penalties 40m out? We were struggling to make metres as it was, brainless stuff.

Garbage.

Edit: it’s been pointed out that Roigard missed one of those kicks for touch.

Regardless of who it was, the team paid heavily for them. Unacceptable.

@Grooter it’s another loss where it could have been a career defining win for Razor. But it is also some what predictable in the Razor era to drop the hardest game and the most important game of the tour

@rewa267 said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Grooter it’s another loss where it could have been a career defining win for Razor. But it is also some what predictable in the Razor era to drop the hardest game and the most important game of the tour

The most worrying sign about the Robertson era is that we play worst in what are known to be important games.........

@rewa267 said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Grooter it’s another loss where it could have been a career defining win for Razor. But it is also some what predictable in the Razor era to drop the hardest game and the most important game of the tour

Even if we turned it around and pipped them at the death it would still rubber-stamp the current trend.

We go life and death with everyone.

We dont grab a game by the scruff of the neck and fucking win it. Like Lions test 1 in 2017.
We brutalised them.

The current team does not impose itself on anyone.

@sparky said in England Vs All Blacks:

@rewa267 said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Grooter it’s another loss where it could have been a career defining win for Razor. But it is also some what predictable in the Razor era to drop the hardest game and the most important game of the tour

The most worrying sign about the Robertson era is that we play worst in what are known to be important games.........

Eden Park against Boks?

Again we start well and dominate the 1st half then it all goes to pot in the 3rd Quarter!!!
It doesn’t work taking BB off from 10 and putting Dmac in, BB needs to stay, dmac at the back, put Jordan on the wing, frees him up to play off BB or Dmac, crap use of the bench this week and it showed, Razor had it right last week, went against what worked.
Ardie disappeared, I thought he got go subbed off for minute there!!

@stodders said in England Vs All Blacks:

@sparky said in England Vs All Blacks:

@rewa267 said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Grooter it’s another loss where it could have been a career defining win for Razor. But it is also some what predictable in the Razor era to drop the hardest game and the most important game of the tour

The most worrying sign about the Robertson era is that we play worst in what are known to be important games.........

Eden Park against Boks?

That's the one exception, aided by a really strange team selection by Rassie for that game. Not picking the likes of Snyman, Esterhuizen, Sasha, Willemse etc did help us keep our Eden Park record intact.

@BorderJB the one thing i will say about Ardie and did wonder about this during the Super season , how much petrol would he have in the tank come the back end of the season?
He looks absolutely shattered i personally think their were games that either Du Plessis Kirifi and or Peter Lakai could have started in the 7 jersey
Fair to say having Scooter injured did not help and that meant having Ardie pick up the captains role but if i have one issue with this coaching group , we select players but never play them Kirifi and Love are classic case in point

@No-Quarter said in England Vs All Blacks:

Ref manages to ruin the fucking game, again, even without foul play. Makes me want to switch off

I did.

Just watching the game. Early part of the game exposed all of our weaknesses, especially our inability to deal with high balls. We worked our way into the game, Lakai ran hard, Lord snaffled a lineout, and we scored a couple of nice tries. BB is holding us back. Two missed penalty touch finders, short pop kicks, aimless deep kicks aren't offset by his one orthodox deep kick to touch. He just fails to give us the authority and control we have to have

Well done England, better team today

England are much more clinical, they ran well, they know exactly what they are trying to do and they execute. Those two DGs were a killer near the end of the first half

@W32 said in England Vs All Blacks:

You guys make me laugh. #2 in the world and acting like it’s the end of the world. It can be far worse believe me.

I’ve never cared about the world rankings. They lag behind reality and don’t truely reflect results for performance.

England played the right tactics today - disrupted our ruck ball aggressively and employed rush defence well. You play to the ref on both those counts. We had chances to come back into the game once we’d let it slip, but weren’t up to it. BB was pretty terrible, and I don’t think some of our selections were great for this game. We have some great top-line players, but the likes of Ratima aren’t up to this level, unfortunately. However, better coaching would help cover those weaknesses. We’re very much in Razor’s image atm - when things aren’t going well, we look completely clueless. I feel for Scooter, a great guy and has been a great player, but not a captain’s asshole.

As soon as Roigard went off I felt like any chance we had to win was dashed because it placed more of the game management responsibilities onto BB

Definitely think Ardie will be rested against Wales, alongside of BB, Cam Roigard & Will Jordan

@canefan Roigard is our most influential player at the moment only problem is he is injury prone. Definitely think the game would have panned out differently if Roigard was on the field when England went down to 14 players

@Gunner said in England Vs All Blacks:

That was shit, and it started with Robertson’s shit selections and tactics.

Proctor has shown absolutely nothing in his many chances at centre, where Tupaea and LF have done well as a combo in their short time together. Breaking that up and selecting Proctor again was a huge mistake.

We went from playing at depth and finding space last week, to the flat footed shit, passing to someone else who is flat footed.

The last 10 of the first half cost us that game.

Beauden Barrett, not once but twice, fucking TWICE missing touch from penalties which put us deep inside their 22. Changed the whole game. Even if we don’t score, England are pinned in their own end and can’t kick 2x drop kicks. That’s inexcusable, he should have been pulled off straight after the 2nd one.

And why the fuck are we taking taps from penalties 40m out? We were struggling to make metres as it was, brainless stuff.

Garbage.

Proctor underwhelming I admit but I thought he was the best defender amongst our backs. I don’t know what the tackle count was but I would guess he was up there.

Outside of a World Cup you look for opportunities to emulate the week-on-week pressure of a tournament. This was a rare shot at a Grand Slam, Based on this, we’ve gone out in the Semis (poorly).

@stodders said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Victor-Meldrew said in England Vs All Blacks:

@stodders said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Victor-Meldrew said in England Vs All Blacks:

@rewa267 said in England Vs All Blacks:

I think it’s difficult for Razor to get rid of the ill discipline within the All Blacks from the Foster era. We see it in the Chiefs & why they can’t win important games & it’s rares it head in the All Blacks

Blaming Foster & The Chiefs for Robertson's inability to instill on-field discipline after 2 years in charge has to be some of the finest satire or sarcasm I've seen on The Fern. Well done sir!

Right now, I'd fucking love 10% of the discipline & resolve Foster's AB's showed in RWC2023.

That was Schmidt. Come on. Foster’s shitshow was before Schmidt arrived.

Yeah, nothing structural in NZ rugby needs to be looked at. All hunky-dory. Just need to find that one bloke who'll sort everything out

NZ have had a number of poor vintages at u20 level in recent years, with this year being the first to showcase some players who could become ABs in the future.

Whereas England, France and SA have had some very good vintages in the same period.

I think this is playing a big part. We have been very poor, by our standards, at age grade level for a while now, and it is being reflected at senior level. We are falling behind in player development. This year looked better, but we still got roundly beaten by SA (we beat them in SA, but the game could have gone either way and we very nearly fucked up at the end). They also looked on par with France etc.

I mentioned the 2022 U20 team a few weeks back and how quite a few players were now starting to come through the senior ranks. While they smacked Aussie and Argentina(?) we never got to see them on the world stage so it's hard to get a good gauge on them.

20 minutes elapsed in the second half, and the ABs have descended into a rabble. Cam is gone and the gulf to Ratima is huge. We don't seem to be able to build attack, we have made so many errors allowing England to dominate play

@Crazy-Horse horse do you know what make me envious? their 3rd playmaking option Fin Smith missed out on selection this week however that doesn't mean Borthwick will preclude him from future top level tests, on the flip side our equivalent Ruben Love has simply never been in consideration the past 3 weeks now has he.

@Grooter said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Crazy-Horse horse do you know what make me envious? their 3rd playmaking option Fin Smith missed out on selection this week however that doesn't mean Borthwick won't include in him future top level tests, on the flip side our equivalent Ruben Love has simply never been in consideration the past 3 weeks now has he.

@Grooter said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Crazy-Horse horse do you know what make me envious? their 3rd playmaking option Fin Smith missed out on selection this week however that doesn't mean Borthwick won't include in him future top level tests, on the flip side our equivalent Ruben Love has simply never been in consideration the past 3 weeks now has he.

Start Love at 10 with DMac on the bench as the safety option if it doesn’t work. I mean FGS, Henry saw that he had to blood another 10 to deputise for Carter and gave Cruden and Slade their chance. They weren’t great when they first started, but experience has to be gained somehow.

The SA tour next year has to see players be given their chance to stake their claim to the top 23. If it is first team and dirt trackers, what is the point? May as well just play the same 23 until someone gets injured - oh wait, that is the plan

New Zealand needs to develop some First Fives with a skill set similar to George Ford. Too many of our 10s melt at Test level because of poor kicking and defensive games and not really coping with the lack of space.

Beauden Barrett hasn't been the answer this year. I don't think bringing back Richie Mo'unga is the answer either.

After a couple of early mistakes DMac steadied. Multiple penalties on England and DMac puts WJ over with a nice move. But for most of the final quarter we are unable to create a platform in the forwards to get back onto attack. Ball to the backs is slow and too many times we are caught well behind the gain line. What was noticeable to me was the youthfulness of the England team, NZ not so much