Exodus

kidcalder7 years ago
#267

Be great to have Cruden back in NZ but more likely with his body obviously taking a beating perhaps Japan is a better fit for him $$$ as well

MajorStokes
MajorStokes7 years ago
#268

@Derm-McCrum said in Exodus 2019:

Err ‘poached’?? I think Munster contracted him. And they have been patient. He’s had 46 appearances since 2015/16 and they even extended his contract until June this year.

Whats the difference between him an Aki? As I'm sure you'll agree Aki is a poach?

Derm McCrum7 years ago
#269

@MajorRage said in Exodus 2019:

@Derm-McCrum said in Exodus 2019:

Err ‘poached’?? I think Munster contracted him. And they have been patient. He’s had 46 appearances since 2015/16 and they even extended his contract until June this year.

Whats the difference between him an Aki? As I'm sure you'll agree Aki is a poach?

It depends on what you mean by poach. The four provinces do need to bring in players from time to time (although it's now reducing) who can bolster their playing stocks and/or serve as a mentor for young players e.g. Fardy and the Leinster Academy kids. The IRFU put limits on the number of NIE (already capped) foreign players that the provinces could bring in because of blocking pathways and also because they've got too expensive. Under the Player Succession Strategy from 2012, the limits were set at 4 NIE plus one special project player who could ultimately qualify through residency (based on the then 3-year requirement). Those limits applied to Leinster, Munster, Ulster and budgets set accordingly. Connacht (where Aki went) were excluded from this approach as they were a development province. (That has now changed in last couple of years with regard to funding from IRFU, but their own financial resources are probably half or less of the other three - gate money, sponsorships, etc.) Lam wanted NZ players like Aki, McCartney, Heenan to develop his squad, not IRFU. (He's doing the exact same at Bristol).

Bleyendaal has been extremely unfortunate with his injuries and timing of them undoubtedly, but Munster have been patient with him (and others) in continuing with him, given there are 5 out halves on the Munster books currently. Keatley is leaving for Bennetton at end of season, and with Carbery now in pole position, I'd wonder if his contract will continue on past this season unless they want Bleyendaal (29 in May) to provide a mentor role to the younger 10s coming through - Johnson and Harrahan.

MajorStokes
MajorStokes7 years ago
#270

@Derm-McCrum You can summarise the poach question as would the player have been bought if they couldn't qualify for Ireland in the future?

rotated
rotated7 years ago
#271

@MajorRage said in Exodus 2019:

@Derm-McCrum You can summarise the poach question as would the player have been bought if they couldn't qualify for Ireland in the future?

You don't even need to ask the question. The designated "project player" is just a "proactively poached player". This is fine and was allowed under the rules at the time, but let's be honest about it.

Derm McCrum7 years ago
#272

@rotated said in Exodus 2019:

@MajorRage said in Exodus 2019:

@Derm-McCrum You can summarise the poach question as would the player have been bought if they couldn't qualify for Ireland in the future?

You don't even need to ask the question. The designated "project player" is just a "proactively poached player". This is fine and was allowed under the rules at the time, but let's be honest about it.

So any uncapped player who is approached or via agent and chooses to move to another club/country to play is a poach then.

Derm McCrum7 years ago
#273

@MajorRage said in Exodus 2019:

@Derm-McCrum You can summarise the poach question as would the player have been bought if they couldn't qualify for Ireland in the future?

Yes. They were allowed 4 NIE players. In Connacht, they didn’t have any restrictions so it didn’t matter if they were NIE or NIQ.

rotated
rotated7 years ago
#274

@Derm-McCrum said in Exodus 2019:

@rotated said in Exodus 2019:

@MajorRage said in Exodus 2019:

@Derm-McCrum You can summarise the poach question as would the player have been bought if they couldn't qualify for Ireland in the future?

You don't even need to ask the question. The designated "project player" is just a "proactively poached player". This is fine and was allowed under the rules at the time, but let's be honest about it.

So any uncapped player who is approached or via agent and chooses to move to another club/country to play is a poach then.

If you are selecting them purely on the basis of if they can be qualified for Ireland at some point in the future (but are not currently) - yes. The slot was created entirely to incentivise the teams to recruit the best foreign players they could that hadn't been nation-tied. This is the literal dictionary definition of poaching - taking or acquiring something in an unfair or clandestine way - with the IRFU qualifying players for national rugby indirectly through the club system.

There is perhaps and argument that guys like JGP who at least had links to Ireland aren't poaches and found their way there "naturally". But if you are thinking a bank teller from South Auckland with Tongan roots ends up playing for Ireland normally then I don't really know what to say...

Even think about the term "project player", what is the "project"?

MajorStokes
MajorStokes7 years ago
#275

@Derm-McCrum said in Exodus 2019:

@MajorRage said in Exodus 2019:

@Derm-McCrum You can summarise the poach question as would the player have been bought if they couldn't qualify for Ireland in the future?

Yes. They were allowed 4 NIE players. In Connacht, they didn’t have any restrictions so it didn’t matter if they were NIE or NIQ.

What's the difference between NIE and NIQ? What do those acronyms actually stand for?

Sorry, I'm not having a pop or anything, I'm just curious if Bleyendaal was a "tactical" choice for potential Ireland selection (like Payne, Aki), or really there to bolster the ranks of the club only (Fardy).

Bones
Bones7 years ago
#276

@MajorRage Not Ireland Eligible and Not Ireland Qualified?

That was my guess. Thanks though! Hadn't actually thought about it before....

Crucial
Crucial7 years ago
#277

'Poaching' is quite subjective. If a player's pathway isn't clear in one country and they look elsewhere that is fine. If they are on a pathway and get offered another route with an 'offer they can't refuse' that doesn't feel right.

rotated
rotated7 years ago
#278

Would have been funny to see what would have happened if the NZRU relaxed the selection rules and picked Aki in his fourth year of Irish qualification. If Aki accepted selection Connacht would be duty bound to release him (like us with Shields and Francis)... then what?

I wonder if his contract stated he had to maintain non-capped status?

Derm McCrum7 years ago
#279

@rotated said in Exodus 2019:

@Derm-McCrum said in Exodus 2019:

@rotated said in Exodus 2019:

@MajorRage said in Exodus 2019:

@Derm-McCrum You can summarise the poach question as would the player have been bought if they couldn't qualify for Ireland in the future?

You don't even need to ask the question. The designated "project player" is just a "proactively poached player". This is fine and was allowed under the rules at the time, but let's be honest about it.

So any uncapped player who is approached or via agent and chooses to move to another club/country to play is a poach then.

If you are selecting them purely on the basis of if they can be qualified for Ireland at some point in the future (but are not currently) - yes. The slot was created entirely to incentivise the teams to recruit the best foreign players they could that hadn't been nation-tied. This is the literal dictionary definition of poaching - taking or acquiring something in an unfair or clandestine way - with the IRFU qualifying players for national rugby indirectly through the club system.

There is perhaps and argument that guys like JGP who at least had links to Ireland aren't poaches and found their way there "naturally". But if you are thinking a bank teller from South Auckland with Tongan roots ends up playing for Ireland normally then I don't really know what to say...

Even think about the term "project player", what is the "project"?

Yes of course, the term project player is used to describe a player who could eventually qualify to be selected for Ireland - or Scotland, Wales, England, NZ, SA, etc, etc.on the basis that a) they are good enough and b) they want to.

A player is either capped or uncapped to state the obvious. It's neither unfair nor clandestine. Nor is hiring them for a period of time to avail of their skill or experience. They're not being selected purely or only on the basis of if they can qualify at some point in future. Players are selected on a number of criteria if the club is Leinster, Munster and Ulster:

a) Are they needed or could the position be filled domestically now?
b) Are they capped - in which case not likely to be called up for test duty
c) What age are they and what experience?
d) How expensive are they - capped is more expensive than uncapped?
e) What position do they play - only 1 per position allowed?
f) Can the team afford to pay the salary?
g) What length contract are you offering/playing is looking for?

If you're Pat Lam in Connacht in 2013/14 starting your first season of a club that has been living in the cellar of the PRO12 since it started, then you're faced with some basic realities:

  • I don't have to follow the recruitment guidelines of the other 3 provinces
  • I do have to boost the playing stocks and get more skill and experience in - but
  • I only have half the playing budget of the other three provinces.
  • I've just lost two of the stalwarts of the team and need to bring in more leadership
  • I need to find the cheapest skill value that I can. Experienced Irish players are reluctant to move to Connacht unless they're raw recruits.
  • I've already blown a big part of the budget on a big name - Muliana - so cheaper uncapped players is the best way to go.
  • I need an experienced hooker, backrower, midfielder and wing/utility back.
  • I know some players from my time in Blues, XX - Jake Heenan, Craig Clarke, Tom McCartney, Bundee Aki, etc - I'll go after them over next couple of seasons.

I completely agree with you that some of the NZ players here had Ireland links already - like McCartney's wife, Bent's sister and brother, McCoy's grandparents, etc and that Aki is an odd man out in that regard, but so are/were Marshall, Bleyendaal, Heenan, Borlase, etc, .

All of the players were aware that they could qualify for selection by residency - it's not a secret - if they got a second contract as a three season contract would not be enough. There were no guarantees - contractually or financially. If you're playing in Connacht, you're going to be earning less than the other three provinces, and a lot less than playing in England or France. ( As a by-the-by , oddly enough, very few of the NZ/Aus seem to be aware of the non-EU foreign player rule restrictions even though it limits their playing time and match fee earnings).

I admire Aki greatly. Despite no country or cultural links, he has endeared himself to his team-mates, his community and to Irish fans generally with his vibrancy, his willingness to get involved, integration with local culture and humbleness are a massive credit to the man.

This video from the Connacht plane returning home after winning the PRO12 title speaks volume for the guy -

Facebook post
Derm McCrum7 years ago
#280

@rotated said in Exodus 2019:

Would have been funny to see what would have happened if the NZRU relaxed the selection rules and picked Aki in his fourth year of Irish qualification. If Aki accepted selection Connacht would be duty bound to release him (like us with Shields and Francis)... then what?

I wonder if his contract stated he had to maintain non-capped status?

No it can't state that. I remember that question came up somewhere else. Aki's first three-season contract was five months short of him having three year residency. All players have to get a second contract that takes them beyond three-year (now five) in order to residency qualify. With five-year, the project player has largely disappeared thought few uncapped foreign players remain in the system - Gibson-Park (June 2019), McCartney (already qualified), Marshall, (Nov 2019), Kleyn, (Aug 2019), Cloete (June 2020), Lowe (Dec 2020)

Derm McCrum7 years ago
#281

@MajorRage said in Exodus 2019:

@Derm-McCrum said in Exodus 2019:

@MajorRage said in Exodus 2019:

@Derm-McCrum You can summarise the poach question as would the player have been bought if they couldn't qualify for Ireland in the future?

Yes. They were allowed 4 NIE players. In Connacht, they didn’t have any restrictions so it didn’t matter if they were NIE or NIQ.

What's the difference between NIE and NIQ? What do those acronyms actually stand for?

Sorry, I'm not having a pop or anything, I'm just curious if Bleyendaal was a "tactical" choice for potential Ireland selection (like Payne, Aki), or really there to bolster the ranks of the club only (Fardy).

Sorry - should have explained. Non-Irish Eligible (already capped) and Non-Irish Qualified (uncapped).

From the IRFU Player Succession Contract Policy issued in 2011:
*"The following principles are designed to deliver at least two suitably experienced Irish players in all 15 field positions for national team selection:

  • One non-Irish eligible (NIE) player only in each of the 15 field positions across the provinces of Leinster, Munster and Ulster e.g. one foreign player allowed across all three teams per position.*
  • For the 2013/14 season and onwards, for any given position involving a contracted NIE player, a province will not be permitted to renew that NIE player contract or bring in a new NIE player into that same position in its squad.
  • All future provincial injury replacement players must be eligible for selection for Ireland.
  • All future provincial non-Irish eligible player contracts will be position specific.
  • The Connacht professional side is external to this process as it has recently commenced a new programme of structural and performance development agreed with the IRFU."*

On Bleyendaal, Munster needed a 10, but the 10 NIE slot was already taken by Gopperth I think, so Munster nominated him as a 12 (who could play 10).

Munster had their project player nominee already - Gerhard van den Heever who didn't work out and went to Japan.

Good interview published today with Bleyendaal here: