@sparky said in Exodus 2019:
Montpellier owner, Mohed Altrad, on Aaron Cruden "Our outside half, since he's here, keeps hurting himself. This season he has been injured four times. It is difficult for him to be efficient. We hoped for something else."
A reminder to all those joining the Exodus that their new owners are unlikely to be as patient and understanding as NZR.
Given that Cruden left because he "missed a plane" and was frequently injured, what was Altrad expecting?
@sparky said in Exodus 2019:
@Derm-McCrum said in Exodus 2019:
@sparky said in Exodus 2019:
Montpellier owner, Mohed Altrad, on Aaron Cruden "Our outside half, since he's here, keeps hurting himself. This season he has been injured four times. It is difficult for him to be efficient. We hoped for something else."
A reminder to all those joining the Exodus that their new owners are unlikely to be as patient and understanding as NZR.
Tyler Bleyendaal might disagree with you.
Yes, poor Tyler. Education at Christchurch Boys' High, two years with the NZ under 20s, four years at Canterbury and three season at the Crusaders (as understudy to the best Five Five of all time) and receiving so much world-class coaching must have him totally underprepared for being poached by Ireland.
Err ‘poached’?? I think Munster contracted him. And they have been patient. He’s had 46 appearances since 2015/16 and they even extended his contract until June this year.
@MN5 said in Exodus 2019:
@Chester-Draws said in Exodus 2019:
@sparky said in Exodus 2019:
Montpellier owner, Mohed Altrad, on Aaron Cruden "Our outside half, since he's here, keeps hurting himself. This season he has been injured four times. It is difficult for him to be efficient. We hoped for something else."
A reminder to all those joining the Exodus that their new owners are unlikely to be as patient and understanding as NZR.
Given that Cruden left because he "missed a plane" and was frequently injured, what was Altrad expecting?
Did he really leave because of injuries and behaviour? I don't think so. He got past the blot on his copybook and was clearly valued by they AB coaches but could see that he was not going to hold off BBs rise to permanent 1st choice and had already ticked off his NZ career aims. Ideal time to collect some money for the years of work.
The problem that many overseas clubs are finding is that when they recruit a guy that has been to the top of the mountain they don't have the same motivation to go back there.
The better value for money is in the good players that are 'bubbling under' or blocked in their NZ pathway. They have the motivation of turning the game into a decently payed career.
Absolutely it is a case of buyer beware for Altred.
@Derm-McCrum said in Exodus 2019:
Err ‘poached’?? I think Munster contracted him. And they have been patient. He’s had 46 appearances since 2015/16 and they even extended his contract until June this year.
Whats the difference between him an Aki? As I'm sure you'll agree Aki is a poach?
@MajorRage said in Exodus 2019:
@Derm-McCrum said in Exodus 2019:
Err ‘poached’?? I think Munster contracted him. And they have been patient. He’s had 46 appearances since 2015/16 and they even extended his contract until June this year.
Whats the difference between him an Aki? As I'm sure you'll agree Aki is a poach?
It depends on what you mean by poach. The four provinces do need to bring in players from time to time (although it's now reducing) who can bolster their playing stocks and/or serve as a mentor for young players e.g. Fardy and the Leinster Academy kids. The IRFU put limits on the number of NIE (already capped) foreign players that the provinces could bring in because of blocking pathways and also because they've got too expensive. Under the Player Succession Strategy from 2012, the limits were set at 4 NIE plus one special project player who could ultimately qualify through residency (based on the then 3-year requirement). Those limits applied to Leinster, Munster, Ulster and budgets set accordingly. Connacht (where Aki went) were excluded from this approach as they were a development province. (That has now changed in last couple of years with regard to funding from IRFU, but their own financial resources are probably half or less of the other three - gate money, sponsorships, etc.) Lam wanted NZ players like Aki, McCartney, Heenan to develop his squad, not IRFU. (He's doing the exact same at Bristol).
Bleyendaal has been extremely unfortunate with his injuries and timing of them undoubtedly, but Munster have been patient with him (and others) in continuing with him, given there are 5 out halves on the Munster books currently. Keatley is leaving for Bennetton at end of season, and with Carbery now in pole position, I'd wonder if his contract will continue on past this season unless they want Bleyendaal (29 in May) to provide a mentor role to the younger 10s coming through - Johnson and Harrahan.
@Derm-McCrum You can summarise the poach question as would the player have been bought if they couldn't qualify for Ireland in the future?
@MajorRage said in Exodus 2019:
@Derm-McCrum You can summarise the poach question as would the player have been bought if they couldn't qualify for Ireland in the future?
You don't even need to ask the question. The designated "project player" is just a "proactively poached player". This is fine and was allowed under the rules at the time, but let's be honest about it.
@rotated said in Exodus 2019:
@MajorRage said in Exodus 2019:
@Derm-McCrum You can summarise the poach question as would the player have been bought if they couldn't qualify for Ireland in the future?
You don't even need to ask the question. The designated "project player" is just a "proactively poached player". This is fine and was allowed under the rules at the time, but let's be honest about it.
So any uncapped player who is approached or via agent and chooses to move to another club/country to play is a poach then.
@MajorRage said in Exodus 2019:
@Derm-McCrum You can summarise the poach question as would the player have been bought if they couldn't qualify for Ireland in the future?
Yes. They were allowed 4 NIE players. In Connacht, they didn’t have any restrictions so it didn’t matter if they were NIE or NIQ.
@Derm-McCrum said in Exodus 2019:
@rotated said in Exodus 2019:
@MajorRage said in Exodus 2019:
@Derm-McCrum You can summarise the poach question as would the player have been bought if they couldn't qualify for Ireland in the future?
You don't even need to ask the question. The designated "project player" is just a "proactively poached player". This is fine and was allowed under the rules at the time, but let's be honest about it.
So any uncapped player who is approached or via agent and chooses to move to another club/country to play is a poach then.
If you are selecting them purely on the basis of if they can be qualified for Ireland at some point in the future (but are not currently) - yes. The slot was created entirely to incentivise the teams to recruit the best foreign players they could that hadn't been nation-tied. This is the literal dictionary definition of poaching - taking or acquiring something in an unfair or clandestine way - with the IRFU qualifying players for national rugby indirectly through the club system.
There is perhaps and argument that guys like JGP who at least had links to Ireland aren't poaches and found their way there "naturally". But if you are thinking a bank teller from South Auckland with Tongan roots ends up playing for Ireland normally then I don't really know what to say...
Even think about the term "project player", what is the "project"?
@Derm-McCrum said in Exodus 2019:
@MajorRage said in Exodus 2019:
@Derm-McCrum You can summarise the poach question as would the player have been bought if they couldn't qualify for Ireland in the future?
Yes. They were allowed 4 NIE players. In Connacht, they didn’t have any restrictions so it didn’t matter if they were NIE or NIQ.
What's the difference between NIE and NIQ? What do those acronyms actually stand for?
Sorry, I'm not having a pop or anything, I'm just curious if Bleyendaal was a "tactical" choice for potential Ireland selection (like Payne, Aki), or really there to bolster the ranks of the club only (Fardy).
@MajorRage Not Ireland Eligible and Not Ireland Qualified?
That was my guess. Thanks though! Hadn't actually thought about it before....
'Poaching' is quite subjective. If a player's pathway isn't clear in one country and they look elsewhere that is fine. If they are on a pathway and get offered another route with an 'offer they can't refuse' that doesn't feel right.
Would have been funny to see what would have happened if the NZRU relaxed the selection rules and picked Aki in his fourth year of Irish qualification. If Aki accepted selection Connacht would be duty bound to release him (like us with Shields and Francis)... then what?
I wonder if his contract stated he had to maintain non-capped status?
@rotated said in Exodus 2019:
Would have been funny to see what would have happened if the NZRU relaxed the selection rules and picked Aki in his fourth year of Irish qualification. If Aki accepted selection Connacht would be duty bound to release him (like us with Shields and Francis)... then what?
I wonder if his contract stated he had to maintain non-capped status?
No it can't state that. I remember that question came up somewhere else. Aki's first three-season contract was five months short of him having three year residency. All players have to get a second contract that takes them beyond three-year (now five) in order to residency qualify. With five-year, the project player has largely disappeared thought few uncapped foreign players remain in the system - Gibson-Park (June 2019), McCartney (already qualified), Marshall, (Nov 2019), Kleyn, (Aug 2019), Cloete (June 2020), Lowe (Dec 2020)
@MajorRage said in Exodus 2019:
@Derm-McCrum said in Exodus 2019:
@MajorRage said in Exodus 2019:
@Derm-McCrum You can summarise the poach question as would the player have been bought if they couldn't qualify for Ireland in the future?
Yes. They were allowed 4 NIE players. In Connacht, they didn’t have any restrictions so it didn’t matter if they were NIE or NIQ.
What's the difference between NIE and NIQ? What do those acronyms actually stand for?
Sorry, I'm not having a pop or anything, I'm just curious if Bleyendaal was a "tactical" choice for potential Ireland selection (like Payne, Aki), or really there to bolster the ranks of the club only (Fardy).
Sorry - should have explained. Non-Irish Eligible (already capped) and Non-Irish Qualified (uncapped).
From the IRFU Player Succession Contract Policy issued in 2011:
*"The following principles are designed to deliver at least two suitably experienced Irish players in all 15 field positions for national team selection:
On Bleyendaal, Munster needed a 10, but the 10 NIE slot was already taken by Gopperth I think, so Munster nominated him as a 12 (who could play 10).
Munster had their project player nominee already - Gerhard van den Heever who didn't work out and went to Japan.
Good interview published today with Bleyendaal here:
