All Blacks 2022

@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2022:

@gt12 thats something I like about Reece, he goes looking for work pops up all over the place and uses his pace to exploit mis-matches.

Wingers dont need to stay on the wing, but I guess thats one of the drawbacks for players like Reiko on the wing, is often if they arent involved enough they tend to be under-utilised, so in Reikos case, if he is on the wing he needs to make sure he is looking for work.

But can certainly see the positives of him in the centres.

that is good but wingers also need to be aware they may be needed back on the position, nothing more annoying than stretching things one way and then you go to unleash the other and find a tight forward on the end of the line

@kiwiwomble in Reece's case, I think he has a pretty good awareness of things and reads play pretty well and is usually in the right place, assisted by his workrate

@canes4life said in All Blacks 2022:

@taniwharugby Goodhue and ALB are probably NZ's best centres, however I don't think either of them suit playing 12 which is where the AB coaches have gone wrong in the past.

The All Black's really need to settle on their top centre pairing because we are running out of tests before the WC.

I think there are 19

O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.

Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.

@gt12 The slow ball that created that turnover was due to Ioane driving back the French maul.

Finding the good midfield combination is a worry but the biggest one, in my opinion, is to find a competitive front five. In this respect, the injury to P.P. Parkinson has been a real blow. He may not be the best lock when the game is played at pace because of his "concrete feet", but his power and massive frame would be of great value against teams like SA, England, Ireland and France. Will he be back to fitness for the EOYT ? This would be a good occasion to test him against muscular and heavy forwards.

@cgrant said in All Blacks 2022:

power and massive frame

Well yeah...if it was noticeable. He certainly doesn't play like a big man, apart from the very occasional slow motion wade through 3-4 tacklers. I think MSR and even Dickson would be ahead of him now.

@bones said in All Blacks 2022:

@cgrant said in All Blacks 2022:

power and massive frame

Well yeah...if it was noticeable. He certainly doesn't play like a big man, apart from the very occasional slow motion wade through 3-4 tacklers. I think MSR and even Dickson would be ahead of him now.

Yes, it's what you do with your frame that counts.

@tim said in All Blacks 2022:

View embedded content

O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.

Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.

It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.

@nzbloke But what is the balance around player welfare? Posters all want harder hits bigger clean outs and aggressive running and playing same best 23 each week. Over extended super season and test season how will players take the extra pounding? Maybe super and AB coaches are being guided a bit about working their key squad members through workload as best they can.

@arhs said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke But what is the balance around player welfare? Posters all want harder hits bigger clean outs and aggressive running and playing same best 23 each week. Over extended super season and test season how will players take the extra pounding? Maybe super and AB coaches are being guided a bit about working their key squad members through workload as best they can.

Guided by the NH?

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@tim said in All Blacks 2022:

View embedded content

O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.

Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.

It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.

I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.

@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.

@crucial duh, what do coaches know? Players have to play better.

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.

Ultimately, though, it's the pathways right. Australia throws up so many high quality cricketers as their lower grades ruthlessly expose flaws. NZ Rugby used to do the same - but the cattle quality seems to have dropped off significantly.

Is it the coaching brain drain? We just don't seem to innovate any more the way we used to; since 2015 I don't think we've seen us leading the world in many categories.

Henry reset this in 03/04 when he took over, kicked a bunch of dickheads out of the team, and changed the culture and quality significnatly. Do we need this again? Who could do it - it ain't gonne be Fozzie, that's for sure.

18 Tests to the world cup, and we're going to be praying for bolters like NMS to ignite our campaign.

Speaking of bolters, Taine Plumtree has looked bloody impressive in the three outings I've seen him in. Just seems to stand out on the field both pre-season and during games. The try scoring is a nice bonus as well

@crucial yep all good there. Just saying that the coaches have a whole lot of things to consider over a long campaign. Efficiency and effectiveness count for a lot. I give them far more credit than the public gives them.

@nzzp I think a perfect storm, we have been losing players for years, but seemed to scrape by, then covid, new coaching regime and all our issues that had been bubbling under for years appear magnified.

Hopefully a blip, but the player and coach drain won't go away...although I guess if we aren't playing the attractive rugby to attract the eyes of the NH pundits, the player drain will inevitably slow...

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@tim said in All Blacks 2022:

View embedded content

O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.

Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.

It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.

I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.

@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.

It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@tim said in All Blacks 2022:

View embedded content

O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.

Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.

It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.

I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.

@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.

It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.

Thanks for the next instalment of rugby 101.
The point was efficient cleanout for fast ball as opposed to 'good numbers'.
What we are doing poorly is cleaning out efficiently and effectively. That's what France and Ireland did well, not send 'good numbers' in to clean out.
There is zero use of fast ball from blowing in 3 or four guys that go off their feet against 2 defenders leaving you with 10 players to attack 13.
Yes, there are times when simply speed is the requirement. eg after a few phases where the defence is misaligned and there are mismatches to exploit but you have to get attacking phases through the line for that and they won't happen if you are attacking a spread defence with holes plugged by numbers.

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@tim said in All Blacks 2022:

View embedded content

O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.

Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.

It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.

I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.

@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.

It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.

Thanks for the next instalment of rugby 101.
The point was efficient cleanout for fast ball as opposed to 'good numbers'.
What we are doing poorly is cleaning out efficiently and effectively. That's what France and Ireland did well, not send 'good numbers' in to clean out.
There is zero use of fast ball from blowing in 3 or four guys that go off their feet against 2 defenders leaving you with 10 players to attack 13.
Yes, there are times when simply speed is the requirement. eg after a few phases where the defence is misaligned and there are mismatches to exploit but you have to get attacking phases through the line for that and they won't happen if you are attacking a spread defence with holes plugged by numbers.

The point is the ABs are doing the basics poorly in the forwards & need to wake up big time otherwise will have to go through the same crap as last year.
It's a big worry with the lack of Super Rugby matches, if this continues for too long the AB players are going to have stuff all match fitness going into tests this year.

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@tim said in All Blacks 2022:

View embedded content

O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.

Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.

It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.

I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.

@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.

It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.

Thanks for the next instalment of rugby 101.
The point was efficient cleanout for fast ball as opposed to 'good numbers'.
What we are doing poorly is cleaning out efficiently and effectively. That's what France and Ireland did well, not send 'good numbers' in to clean out.
There is zero use of fast ball from blowing in 3 or four guys that go off their feet against 2 defenders leaving you with 10 players to attack 13.
Yes, there are times when simply speed is the requirement. eg after a few phases where the defence is misaligned and there are mismatches to exploit but you have to get attacking phases through the line for that and they won't happen if you are attacking a spread defence with holes plugged by numbers.

The point is the ABs are doing the basics poorly in the forwards & need to wake up big time otherwise will have to go through the same crap as last year.
It's a big worry with the lack of Super Rugby matches, if this continues for too long the AB players are going to have stuff all match fitness going into tests this year.

Nah. If we were doing the basics poorly in the forwards we would be getting beaten by everyone.
Were they dominant enough to beat the best? No.

There's a long way to go before the tests start and probably only another couple of weeks of disruptions. I have no idea where this idea of being underdone is coming from. It's usually cries of being overcooked.