@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
Biggest drop-off for me in the last 5 years has been lack of clear thnking under pressure.
Totally agree... also the forwards are not giving the backs good platforms to attack from, that all starts with the tight-five.
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2022:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
Areas of weakness were identified, and new players were built. Is there any evidence of that happening since 2016?
Reiko at 13 seems an ongoing project. Like to see him breakthrough in that position this year
I can see why they want it. A point of difference in the midfield (his speed) could be the break that unlocks a tight game. He does need to improve his passing (mainly his choice of when to pass and when not to).
It's not very often he's going to be able to use his speed in a very congested area like the midfield, especially against the better teams... he'll have more chances to use his outstanding pace on the wing, also looks more comfortable playing there.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
my main takeaway from that article is
jesus NZ A would suck right now.
The problem is not just their age, it's how they play. Who in our entire tight 5 can sit a guy on his ass in a tackle, or run through him, at test level? I would pretty much say the probably #3 hooker can fucking run, and Ofa can hit (but gets far too many wrong). That's it.
you can extend that to the whole pack. Cane can hit. Not many others can. And not many can run over a bloke (at test level, not Super Rugby, don't fucking start). We have depowered our rugby to play this high tempo skill stuff.
Problem being our skills aren't there, and you don't get to play tempo just because you want to.
At least the last time this happened, Henry came in an took immediate steps. We haven't even started rectifying it. Because we appear to have lost out single-minded purpose as a rugby nation.
This is it in a nutshell.
Now, just maybe our coaches realise this and are trying to find a way to play with the cattle we have?
Probably not but it is a possibility. If they can't find the forwards to play like that AND do the other skills necessary at test level then the issues lie either with selection or skills training.
I think we lost a lot when Mick Byrne left. He may have started as a kicking and handling skills coach but he was a great at analysing and coaching techniques.
Anyone who has ever played the game at some level will remember a coach telling them that the biggest muscles in their body are their legs and the importance of leg drive in contact. Why don't we see that at the top? Is it a fear of being isolated at the breakdown that is making our coaches tell players to take the tackle and recycle?
The curiosity last year was seeing the type of player we need (Taukei'aho) get initially left out and the selectors not promoting him until injury forced them too
seems to me that want Reiko in the midfield because we're struggling to get the ball to the wing against the rush and they want a weapon to get their hands on the ball earlier....but then we're not actually doing anything else to give him the chance to break the line. I can imagine it would work with someone like SBW at 12 (or obviously nonu), someone that could draw a couple of tacklers and get a pass away...but in reality we saw in the end of year tour the ball just get shovelled into midfield and every one just wait for whoever was there to do something
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2022:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
Areas of weakness were identified, and new players were built. Is there any evidence of that happening since 2016?
Reiko at 13 seems an ongoing project. Like to see him breakthrough in that position this year
I can see why they want it. A point of difference in the midfield (his speed) could be the break that unlocks a tight game. He does need to improve his passing (mainly his choice of when to pass and when not to).
It's not very often he's going to be able to use his speed in a very congested area like the midfield, especially against the better teams... he'll have more chances to use his outstanding pace on the wing, also looks more comfortable playing there.
Only needs one chance in a tight game, but this is why they are doing it, looking for him to use his speed in mismatches on turnover ball (and with luck if we improve our offense, off set plays).
You guys have watched rugby recently haven't you?
The only time midfielders line up 'in position' these days is at set piece and even then, there are many variations.
Sure they still have a key role of creating space through straightening attacks and bending lines but after first phase you will more likely find them split and supporting either flank.
@gt12 thats something I like about Reece, he goes looking for work pops up all over the place and uses his pace to exploit mis-matches.
Wingers dont need to stay on the wing, but I guess thats one of the drawbacks for players like Reiko on the wing, is often if they arent involved enough they tend to be under-utilised, so in Reikos case, if he is on the wing he needs to make sure he is looking for work.
But can certainly see the positives of him in the centres.
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
The curiosity last year was seeing the type of player we need (Taukei'aho) get initially left out and the selectors not promoting him until injury forced them too
Hit the nail on the head
@tim wouldn't mind seeing a shake-up in that backline. For me R Ioane isn't the answer to centre so I would actually move him back to 11.
Something like this would do nicely.
9. A Smith 10. B Barrett 11. R Ioane 12. T Umaga-Jensen 13. A Leinert-Brown 14. W Jordan 15. J Barrett Reserve backs: 21. B Weber 22. R Mo'unga 23. P Umaga-Jensen / D Havili / Q Tupaea
@canes4life Yeah, it really is about getting that midfield right.
@tim I think in TUJ you have the size, grunt and skill-set required to be a international 12, then having ALB outside him gives you a sound defender and distributor which you need in that combination.
I would then have PUJ coming on late in the game who has been outstanding coming on for the Canes at either 12/13 even though we all know he should be starting.
@tim reckon the comments on Goodhue-ALB were a bit harsh.
Goodhue is more in the traditional distributing centre mould and probably the best defender, while ALB can be a weapon with his accelaration.
Problem is, we have chopped and changed so often, it affects whoever plays there, and as such, affects the ball going further too.
Just hope Fozzie goes in with his eyes open this year, and loyalty is only rewarded where justified.
@taniwharugby Goodhue and ALB are probably NZ's best centres, however I don't think either of them suit playing 12 which is where the AB coaches have gone wrong in the past.
The All Black's really need to settle on their top centre pairing because we are running out of tests before the WC.
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2022:
@gt12 thats something I like about Reece, he goes looking for work pops up all over the place and uses his pace to exploit mis-matches.
Wingers dont need to stay on the wing, but I guess thats one of the drawbacks for players like Reiko on the wing, is often if they arent involved enough they tend to be under-utilised, so in Reikos case, if he is on the wing he needs to make sure he is looking for work.
But can certainly see the positives of him in the centres.
that is good but wingers also need to be aware they may be needed back on the position, nothing more annoying than stretching things one way and then you go to unleash the other and find a tight forward on the end of the line
@kiwiwomble in Reece's case, I think he has a pretty good awareness of things and reads play pretty well and is usually in the right place, assisted by his workrate
@canes4life said in All Blacks 2022:
@taniwharugby Goodhue and ALB are probably NZ's best centres, however I don't think either of them suit playing 12 which is where the AB coaches have gone wrong in the past.
The All Black's really need to settle on their top centre pairing because we are running out of tests before the WC.
I think there are 19
O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.
Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.
Finding the good midfield combination is a worry but the biggest one, in my opinion, is to find a competitive front five. In this respect, the injury to P.P. Parkinson has been a real blow. He may not be the best lock when the game is played at pace because of his "concrete feet", but his power and massive frame would be of great value against teams like SA, England, Ireland and France. Will he be back to fitness for the EOYT ? This would be a good occasion to test him against muscular and heavy forwards.
@cgrant said in All Blacks 2022:
power and massive frame
Well yeah...if it was noticeable. He certainly doesn't play like a big man, apart from the very occasional slow motion wade through 3-4 tacklers. I think MSR and even Dickson would be ahead of him now.
@bones said in All Blacks 2022:
@cgrant said in All Blacks 2022:
power and massive frame
Well yeah...if it was noticeable. He certainly doesn't play like a big man, apart from the very occasional slow motion wade through 3-4 tacklers. I think MSR and even Dickson would be ahead of him now.
Yes, it's what you do with your frame that counts.
@tim said in All Blacks 2022:
O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.
Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.
It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.
@nzbloke But what is the balance around player welfare? Posters all want harder hits bigger clean outs and aggressive running and playing same best 23 each week. Over extended super season and test season how will players take the extra pounding? Maybe super and AB coaches are being guided a bit about working their key squad members through workload as best they can.
@arhs said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke But what is the balance around player welfare? Posters all want harder hits bigger clean outs and aggressive running and playing same best 23 each week. Over extended super season and test season how will players take the extra pounding? Maybe super and AB coaches are being guided a bit about working their key squad members through workload as best they can.
Guided by the NH?
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@tim said in All Blacks 2022:
O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.
Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.
It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.
I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.
@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.
Ultimately, though, it's the pathways right. Australia throws up so many high quality cricketers as their lower grades ruthlessly expose flaws. NZ Rugby used to do the same - but the cattle quality seems to have dropped off significantly.
Is it the coaching brain drain? We just don't seem to innovate any more the way we used to; since 2015 I don't think we've seen us leading the world in many categories.
Henry reset this in 03/04 when he took over, kicked a bunch of dickheads out of the team, and changed the culture and quality significnatly. Do we need this again? Who could do it - it ain't gonne be Fozzie, that's for sure.
18 Tests to the world cup, and we're going to be praying for bolters like NMS to ignite our campaign.
Speaking of bolters, Taine Plumtree has looked bloody impressive in the three outings I've seen him in. Just seems to stand out on the field both pre-season and during games. The try scoring is a nice bonus as well 
@nzzp I think a perfect storm, we have been losing players for years, but seemed to scrape by, then covid, new coaching regime and all our issues that had been bubbling under for years appear magnified.
Hopefully a blip, but the player and coach drain won't go away...although I guess if we aren't playing the attractive rugby to attract the eyes of the NH pundits, the player drain will inevitably slow...
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@tim said in All Blacks 2022:
O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.
Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.
It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.
I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.
It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@tim said in All Blacks 2022:
O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.
Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.
It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.
I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.
Thanks for the next instalment of rugby 101.
The point was efficient cleanout for fast ball as opposed to 'good numbers'.
What we are doing poorly is cleaning out efficiently and effectively. That's what France and Ireland did well, not send 'good numbers' in to clean out.
There is zero use of fast ball from blowing in 3 or four guys that go off their feet against 2 defenders leaving you with 10 players to attack 13.
Yes, there are times when simply speed is the requirement. eg after a few phases where the defence is misaligned and there are mismatches to exploit but you have to get attacking phases through the line for that and they won't happen if you are attacking a spread defence with holes plugged by numbers.
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@tim said in All Blacks 2022:
O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.
Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.
It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.
I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.Thanks for the next instalment of rugby 101.
The point was efficient cleanout for fast ball as opposed to 'good numbers'.
What we are doing poorly is cleaning out efficiently and effectively. That's what France and Ireland did well, not send 'good numbers' in to clean out.
There is zero use of fast ball from blowing in 3 or four guys that go off their feet against 2 defenders leaving you with 10 players to attack 13.
Yes, there are times when simply speed is the requirement. eg after a few phases where the defence is misaligned and there are mismatches to exploit but you have to get attacking phases through the line for that and they won't happen if you are attacking a spread defence with holes plugged by numbers.
The point is the ABs are doing the basics poorly in the forwards & need to wake up big time otherwise will have to go through the same crap as last year.
It's a big worry with the lack of Super Rugby matches, if this continues for too long the AB players are going to have stuff all match fitness going into tests this year.
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@tim said in All Blacks 2022:
O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.
Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.
It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.
I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.Thanks for the next instalment of rugby 101.
The point was efficient cleanout for fast ball as opposed to 'good numbers'.
What we are doing poorly is cleaning out efficiently and effectively. That's what France and Ireland did well, not send 'good numbers' in to clean out.
There is zero use of fast ball from blowing in 3 or four guys that go off their feet against 2 defenders leaving you with 10 players to attack 13.
Yes, there are times when simply speed is the requirement. eg after a few phases where the defence is misaligned and there are mismatches to exploit but you have to get attacking phases through the line for that and they won't happen if you are attacking a spread defence with holes plugged by numbers.The point is the ABs are doing the basics poorly in the forwards & need to wake up big time otherwise will have to go through the same crap as last year.
It's a big worry with the lack of Super Rugby matches, if this continues for too long the AB players are going to have stuff all match fitness going into tests this year.
Nah. If we were doing the basics poorly in the forwards we would be getting beaten by everyone.
Were they dominant enough to beat the best? No.
There's a long way to go before the tests start and probably only another couple of weeks of disruptions. I have no idea where this idea of being underdone is coming from. It's usually cries of being overcooked.
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@tim said in All Blacks 2022:
O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.
Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.
It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.
I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.Thanks for the next instalment of rugby 101.
The point was efficient cleanout for fast ball as opposed to 'good numbers'.
What we are doing poorly is cleaning out efficiently and effectively. That's what France and Ireland did well, not send 'good numbers' in to clean out.
There is zero use of fast ball from blowing in 3 or four guys that go off their feet against 2 defenders leaving you with 10 players to attack 13.
Yes, there are times when simply speed is the requirement. eg after a few phases where the defence is misaligned and there are mismatches to exploit but you have to get attacking phases through the line for that and they won't happen if you are attacking a spread defence with holes plugged by numbers.The point is the ABs are doing the basics poorly in the forwards & need to wake up big time otherwise will have to go through the same crap as last year.
It's a big worry with the lack of Super Rugby matches, if this continues for too long the AB players are going to have stuff all match fitness going into tests this year.Nah. If we were doing the basics poorly in the forwards we would be getting beaten by everyone.
Were they dominant enough to beat the best? No.There's a long way to go before the tests start and probably only another couple of weeks of disruptions. I have no idea where this idea of being underdone is coming from. It's usually cries of being overcooked.
Of course it's about making sure they do the basics well against the best teams... against the lesser sides the AB would get away with it.
I said ' if ' it continues through covid cases, didn't say it definitely would.
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@tim said in All Blacks 2022:
O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.
Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.
It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.
I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.Thanks for the next instalment of rugby 101.
The point was efficient cleanout for fast ball as opposed to 'good numbers'.
What we are doing poorly is cleaning out efficiently and effectively. That's what France and Ireland did well, not send 'good numbers' in to clean out.
There is zero use of fast ball from blowing in 3 or four guys that go off their feet against 2 defenders leaving you with 10 players to attack 13.
Yes, there are times when simply speed is the requirement. eg after a few phases where the defence is misaligned and there are mismatches to exploit but you have to get attacking phases through the line for that and they won't happen if you are attacking a spread defence with holes plugged by numbers.The point is the ABs are doing the basics poorly in the forwards & need to wake up big time otherwise will have to go through the same crap as last year.
It's a big worry with the lack of Super Rugby matches, if this continues for too long the AB players are going to have stuff all match fitness going into tests this year.Nah. If we were doing the basics poorly in the forwards we would be getting beaten by everyone.
Were they dominant enough to beat the best? No.There's a long way to go before the tests start and probably only another couple of weeks of disruptions. I have no idea where this idea of being underdone is coming from. It's usually cries of being overcooked.
Of course it's about making sure they do the basics well against the best teams... against the lesser sides the AB would get away with it.
I said ' if ' it continues, didn't say it definitely would.
Man, you should replace Fozzie.
"Go out there and do the basics well boys"
If we weren't doing basics well even Oz would kick our arses. Our losses were close. The problem that we have is that we aren't dominating in either attack or defence. Whether that is through personnel or gameplans or lower player quality is the arguable point. Other countries are a touch better and we aren't going to beat them regularly without upping the game.
No need to make out that we are poor at the basics. We just aren't good enough to beat those that have surpassed us and the gripe is that the coaches don't seem to ave the answer for that.
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
No need to make out that we are poor at the basics. We just aren't good enough to beat those that have surpassed us and the gripe is that the coaches don't seem to ave the answer for that.
I think you are overreacting a bit. To me, the secret of AB rugby is all about doing the basics well and consistently -and that allows razzle dazzle and showcase reel highlights elsewhere.
What's concerning me is our rate of basic errors has gone up - the quality of cleaning, the skill level with the ball, missing touch with kicks. poor box kicking, etc. It's the basics; winning lineout ball, kickoffs in the right place, lifters ready, getting the right players carrying around rucks, etc. So I don't think we are good at the basics at the moment.
The argument I suppose is how good is good, and how poor is poor. We're certianly good, but things like Tonga scoring a rolling maul try against us makes me scratch my head. A well drilled team with the basics should be able to defend it. Then we shouldn't be surprised if England or Ireland or SA do that against us either.
We're trending towards a solid, team, somwehwere between 2 and 5 in the world. That's elite by all but AB historical standards frankly.
@old-samurai-jack said in All Blacks 2022:
You can see the developments in the Six Nations that counter the rush defense. Playing very deep in the backs with very deep passes, getting go forward up the middle with your big ball running tighties, a different strategic kicking game, and different tactics at the breakdown(Jeff Wilson highlighted on the Breakdown). Unfortunately, none of these "innovations" come from NZ.
Exactly, right on point with the evolution of tight defenses and the opposition no longer gifting the AB trys via turnover ball... And in order to dismantle modern defences you need to be systematic, something Foster is incapable off. When faced with tough defences, the ABs turn to hail mary's, give the ball to whatever bulldozing star we have convinced ourselves is unstoppable. When that fails, which it will most of the time, the team looks clueless.
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@tim said in All Blacks 2022:
O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.
Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.
It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.
I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.Thanks for the next instalment of rugby 101.
The point was efficient cleanout for fast ball as opposed to 'good numbers'.
What we are doing poorly is cleaning out efficiently and effectively. That's what France and Ireland did well, not send 'good numbers' in to clean out.
There is zero use of fast ball from blowing in 3 or four guys that go off their feet against 2 defenders leaving you with 10 players to attack 13.
Yes, there are times when simply speed is the requirement. eg after a few phases where the defence is misaligned and there are mismatches to exploit but you have to get attacking phases through the line for that and they won't happen if you are attacking a spread defence with holes plugged by numbers.The point is the ABs are doing the basics poorly in the forwards & need to wake up big time otherwise will have to go through the same crap as last year.
It's a big worry with the lack of Super Rugby matches, if this continues for too long the AB players are going to have stuff all match fitness going into tests this year.Nah. If we were doing the basics poorly in the forwards we would be getting beaten by everyone.
Were they dominant enough to beat the best? No.There's a long way to go before the tests start and probably only another couple of weeks of disruptions. I have no idea where this idea of being underdone is coming from. It's usually cries of being overcooked.
Of course it's about making sure they do the basics well against the best teams... against the lesser sides the AB would get away with it.
I said ' if ' it continues, didn't say it definitely would.Man, you should replace Fozzie.
"Go out there and do the basics well boys"
If we weren't doing basics well even Oz would kick our arses. Our losses were close. The problem that we have is that we aren't dominating in either attack or defence. Whether that is through personnel or gameplans or lower player quality is the arguable point. Other countries are a touch better and we aren't going to beat them regularly without upping the game.
No need to make out that we are poor at the basics. We just aren't good enough to beat those that have surpassed us and the gripe is that the coaches don't seem to ave the answer for that.
FFS ! ...we have the best backs in the world but can't take full advantage of them against the best teams because the tight-five are not doing the job against them properly, we all known the game is dominated in the forwards, it's so obvious what our forwards need to do, by AB standards we are playing very poorly.
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@tim said in All Blacks 2022:
O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.
Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.
It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.
I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.Thanks for the next instalment of rugby 101.
The point was efficient cleanout for fast ball as opposed to 'good numbers'.
What we are doing poorly is cleaning out efficiently and effectively. That's what France and Ireland did well, not send 'good numbers' in to clean out.
There is zero use of fast ball from blowing in 3 or four guys that go off their feet against 2 defenders leaving you with 10 players to attack 13.
Yes, there are times when simply speed is the requirement. eg after a few phases where the defence is misaligned and there are mismatches to exploit but you have to get attacking phases through the line for that and they won't happen if you are attacking a spread defence with holes plugged by numbers.The point is the ABs are doing the basics poorly in the forwards & need to wake up big time otherwise will have to go through the same crap as last year.
It's a big worry with the lack of Super Rugby matches, if this continues for too long the AB players are going to have stuff all match fitness going into tests this year.Nah. If we were doing the basics poorly in the forwards we would be getting beaten by everyone.
Were they dominant enough to beat the best? No.There's a long way to go before the tests start and probably only another couple of weeks of disruptions. I have no idea where this idea of being underdone is coming from. It's usually cries of being overcooked.
Of course it's about making sure they do the basics well against the best teams... against the lesser sides the AB would get away with it.
I said ' if ' it continues, didn't say it definitely would.Man, you should replace Fozzie.
"Go out there and do the basics well boys"
If we weren't doing basics well even Oz would kick our arses. Our losses were close. The problem that we have is that we aren't dominating in either attack or defence. Whether that is through personnel or gameplans or lower player quality is the arguable point. Other countries are a touch better and we aren't going to beat them regularly without upping the game.
No need to make out that we are poor at the basics. We just aren't good enough to beat those that have surpassed us and the gripe is that the coaches don't seem to ave the answer for that.FFS ! ...we have the best backs in the world but can't take full advantage of them against the best teams because the tight-five are not doing the job against them properly, we all known the game is dominated in the forwards, so it so obviously what our forwards need to do, by AB standards we are playing very poorly.
Havili and Bridge are nowhere near that category, nor was Mounga when he returned. Bridge being unable to beat a defender has zero to do with the forwards
