Exodus

@machpants said in Exodus 2019:

The Boks probably have the most players in overseas leagues, the PI the most percentage of players, but man how many NZ pro/semi pro coaches are around the world? Really I think coaching is NZs biggest advantage, and because there are so few slots available here we are spreading our power (see Lions, Ireland). What are coaches salaries like, in Top 14 etc, compared to players?

@derm-mccrum Only 5 NZers in Italy? That doesn't seem correct.

Awesome graph spam though! :thumbs_up_medium_skin_tone:

@nepia said in Exodus 2019:

@derm-mccrum Only 5 NZers in Italy? That doesn't seem correct.

Awesome graph spam though! :thumbs_up_medium_skin_tone:

I only looked at players who were born in each country. Where they grew up, moved to, who their parents are is not taken account of. Just raw numbers on where a player was born. I looked at wiki pages for each club, union and club websites. And it's professional teams only - so only two in Italy.

And just so the NH doesn't feel left out.

@derm-mccrum 6 by my count, but still low.

Treviso - Budd, Hayward, Faiva, Manu
Zebre - Renton, Tuivaiti

It's a graphical extravaganza! Cheers!

@bovidae said in Exodus 2019:

@derm-mccrum 6 by my count, but still low.

Treviso - Budd, Hayward, Faiva, Manu
Zebre - Renton, Tuivaiti

You're right - I put the wrong number into the Italy column instead of NZ for Tuivaiti..

@derm-mccrum I never realised there were so many Kiwis, relative to SA. So many Fijians too.

It will be interesting to see what happens in UK post BREXIT, SA and PI players will no longer count as European Associated, it won't exist as a category maybe, so PR will have to change it's rules about number of non-UK players I guess

@derm-mccrum said in Exodus 2019:

@nepia said in Exodus 2019:

@derm-mccrum Only 5 NZers in Italy? That doesn't seem correct.

Awesome graph spam though! :thumbs_up_medium_skin_tone:

I only looked at players who were born in each country. Where they grew up, moved to, who their parents are is not taken account of. Just raw numbers on where a player was born. I looked at wiki pages for each club, union and club websites. And it's professional teams only - so only two in Italy.

Interesting stuff - well done!

So the French basically can field 22 XVs of SH players!

They've fucked themselves and are slowly taking the rest of us with them!

@chris-b said in Exodus 2019:

@derm-mccrum said in Exodus 2019:

@nepia said in Exodus 2019:

@derm-mccrum Only 5 NZers in Italy? That doesn't seem correct.

Awesome graph spam though! :thumbs_up_medium_skin_tone:

I only looked at players who were born in each country. Where they grew up, moved to, who their parents are is not taken account of. Just raw numbers on where a player was born. I looked at wiki pages for each club, union and club websites. And it's professional teams only - so only two in Italy.

Interesting stuff - well done!

So the French basically can field 22 XVs of SH players!

They've fucked themselves and are slowly taking the rest of us with them!

Indeed. Except Murphy's Law will now apply and they'll probably go and win the world cup with all French-born players just to piss us all off.

I looked up players in the Italian Top 12. I first checked Wikipedia and then the clubs team & player profiles.
These are the players & coaches, who were either born and/or raised in NZ:

Rugby San Donà:
Edward Reeves (represents Italy, but born in NZ)
Leroy Henry-Jack
NZ coach: Craig Green

Rugby Calvisano
no NZ players

Fiamme Oro Rugby
no NZ players

S.S. Lazio Rugby 1927
no NZ players

Rugby Club I Medicei
no NZ players

Rugby Mogliano
Joe Toai-Key
Mark Jackman

Petrarca Rugby
Jeremy Su'a

Valorugby Emilia
Cardiff Vaega
Junior Ngaluafe

Rugby Rovigo
NZ coach: Joe McDonnell

Valsugana Rugby Padova
no NZ players

Verona Rugby
ass coach: Luke Mahoney

Rugby Viadana
UK born, but NZ parents: Keanu Apperley

@machpants said in Exodus 2019:

@derm-mccrum I never realised there were so many Kiwis, relative to SA. So many Fijians too.

It will be interesting to see what happens in UK post BREXIT, SA and PI players will no longer count as European Associated, it won't exist as a category maybe, so PR will have to change it's rules about number of non-UK players I guess

The soccer authorities have woken up to this and it's being presented as better and more opportunities for England qualified players in the leagues.

The rule on only 2 non-European players in a match day squad for Top 14, Premiership, PRO14 and the European Cup comps only applies to NZ or Australian born. If a player has PI heritage of any kind, then they're in. If you look at the background to a lot of the NZ players in France particularly, you can see why they chose some of them, so they can field 4 or 5 ex-ABs in a game which pisses off the opposition.

@derm-mccrum said in Exodus 2019:

@bovidae said in Exodus 2019:

@derm-mccrum 6 by my count, but still low.

Treviso - Budd, Hayward, Faiva, Manu
Zebre - Renton, Tuivaiti

You're right - I put the wrong number into the Italy column instead of NZ for Tuivaiti..

I wonder if your Tongans and Samoans in the 'SH-born professional players in 52 European clubs' actually includes NZers? (Clearly I can't handle SA being ahead of us!)

Does Italy only have two professional clubs now or only two that play in the whatever the European cup comp is called now?

@nepia said in Exodus 2019:

@derm-mccrum said in Exodus 2019:

@bovidae said in Exodus 2019:

@derm-mccrum 6 by my count, but still low.

Treviso - Budd, Hayward, Faiva, Manu
Zebre - Renton, Tuivaiti

You're right - I put the wrong number into the Italy column instead of NZ for Tuivaiti..

I wonder if your Tongans and Samoans in the 'SH-born professional players in 52 European clubs' actually includes NZers? (Clearly I can't handle SA being ahead of us!)

Does Italy only have two professional clubs now or only two that play in the whatever the European cup comp is called now?

I checked as carefully as I could on each player - a number of them were registered with the NZ union, but their birthplace was Tonga, Samoa, Fiji, etc. Equally, I checked players with the various PI flags and a good number of them were born in NZ and put them into NZ column.

As far as I'm aware, Benetton and Zebre are the only two professional clubs that play in the PRO14 Championship, along with Ireland, Wales, Scotland and South Africa. If one or both of them finish in the top 7 they qualify for the Heineken Champions Cup. If lower, they go into the Challenge Cup.

The Top 12 in Italy is semi-professional as far as I'm aware. (Given the FIR have reneged on their financial commitments for the two professional teams in the PRO14 over a few years, I'd hope this is the case.)

@Nepia Here's the make up of the club squads that are currently top 6 in the PRO14 - split across two conferences:

@derm-mccrum are those Irish squad sizes correct? Between 60 and 69 players? Does that include the reserves side?

@mariner4life said in Exodus 2019:

@derm-mccrum are those Irish squad sizes correct? Between 60 and 69 players? Does that include the reserves side?

All the 6 teams include both the senior and academy squads as they're called. In Ireland, we don't have "reserves' as such. The PRO14 Championship is 21 rounds, the European Cup has 6 pool rounds, (plus knockouts) and there's 10-12 tests to play, so players get game time. Last season, Leinster used 55 players during the season.

At the weekend just gone, they went away to Dragons in Wales. Cullen decided to throw his kids in at the deep end, minded by Grandad Fardy. 5 first team benchers, 11 second and third choice, and 7 academy 19/20 year olds - mainly in the backline. 4 of the academy kids scored on the night in a absolute routing 59-10. The academy keeps on giving.

@derm-mccrum If Argentina can buck up their ideas, France might not even make it out of their pool. A result I will, frankly, be cheering for.

@chris-b said in Exodus 2019:

@derm-mccrum If Argentina can buck up their ideas, France might not even make it out of their pool. A result I will, frankly, be cheering for.

Even though it might be through gritted teeth, I might join you.

@derm-mccrum Yes, well, I might be overtaken by schadenfreude if it is England that is teetering...

@derm-mccrum said in Exodus 2019:

@machpants said in Exodus 2019:

The Boks probably have the most players in overseas leagues, the PI the most percentage of players, but man how many NZ pro/semi pro coaches are around the world? Really I think coaching is NZs biggest advantage, and because there are so few slots available here we are spreading our power (see Lions, Ireland). What are coaches salaries like, in Top 14 etc, compared to players?

View image

Conveniently ignores the international coaches which are the cream of the crop.

Someone should do head coaches of the next RWC.

@derm-mccrum said in Exodus 2019:

@mariner4life said in Exodus 2019:

@derm-mccrum are those Irish squad sizes correct? Between 60 and 69 players? Does that include the reserves side?

All the 6 teams include both the senior and academy squads as they're called. In Ireland, we don't have "reserves' as such. The PRO14 Championship is 21 rounds, the European Cup has 6 pool rounds, (plus knockouts) and there's 10-12 tests to play, so players get game time. Last season, Leinster used 55 players during the season.

At the weekend just gone, they went away to Dragons in Wales. Cullen decided to throw his kids in at the deep end, minded by Grandad Fardy. 5 first team benchers, 11 second and third choice, and 7 academy 19/20 year olds - mainly in the backline. 4 of the academy kids scored on the night in a absolute routing 59-10. The academy keeps on giving.

Never mind the dry powder, metres-gained metrics, etc, etc... THIS, this gives me the fucking fear, as an All Blacks supporter.
It really sounds like Ireland has got their shit together.

@mofitzy_ said in Exodus 2019:

@derm-mccrum said in Exodus 2019:

@machpants said in Exodus 2019:

The Boks probably have the most players in overseas leagues, the PI the most percentage of players, but man how many NZ pro/semi pro coaches are around the world? Really I think coaching is NZs biggest advantage, and because there are so few slots available here we are spreading our power (see Lions, Ireland). What are coaches salaries like, in Top 14 etc, compared to players?

View image

Conveniently ignores the international coaches which are the cream of the crop.

Someone should do head coaches of the next RWC.

Not sure how a graphic illustrating coaches at club level in a response to a discussion about club coaches manages to conveniently ignores test coaches. But dont’ let me stop you feeling all aggrieved and offended - it is Tuesday after all.

I’ve got an idea - why don’t you list the head coaches for the next RWC? That could be interesting.

@derm-mccrum said in Exodus 2019:

@mofitzy_ said in Exodus 2019:

@derm-mccrum said in Exodus 2019:

@machpants said in Exodus 2019:

The Boks probably have the most players in overseas leagues, the PI the most percentage of players, but man how many NZ pro/semi pro coaches are around the world? Really I think coaching is NZs biggest advantage, and because there are so few slots available here we are spreading our power (see Lions, Ireland). What are coaches salaries like, in Top 14 etc, compared to players?

View image

Conveniently ignores the international coaches which are the cream of the crop.

Someone should do head coaches of the next RWC.

Not sure how a graphic illustrating coaches at club level in a response to a discussion about club coaches manages to conveniently ignores test coaches. But dont’ let me stop you feeling all aggrieved and offended - it is Tuesday after all.

I’ve got an idea - why don’t you list the head coaches for the next RWC? That could be interesting.

And, please, do that in a separate thread. This thread is about the exodus of players/coaches in 2019.

Now, I think of it. Maybe, if a mod would be so kind to move all these stats posts to a new, separate thread?

6 of 20, just checking Canada... Nope he's Welsh Edit see below

Wales 3
NZ* 7
Oz* 3
SA* 2
France* 1
Ireland 1
Scotland* 1
Argentina* 2

An * Means home national coaching their team. Not bad by Wales, and more than a third are kiwis

@machpants said in Exodus 2019:

6 of 20, just checking Canada... Nope he's Welsh Edit see below

View embedded content

That article is sooo last year.

Keane got the boot at Connacht last season.

@stargazer said in Exodus 2019:

@derm-mccrum said in Exodus 2019:

@mofitzy_ said in Exodus 2019:

@derm-mccrum said in Exodus 2019:

@machpants said in Exodus 2019:

The Boks probably have the most players in overseas leagues, the PI the most percentage of players, but man how many NZ pro/semi pro coaches are around the world? Really I think coaching is NZs biggest advantage, and because there are so few slots available here we are spreading our power (see Lions, Ireland). What are coaches salaries like, in Top 14 etc, compared to players?

View image

Conveniently ignores the international coaches which are the cream of the crop.

Someone should do head coaches of the next RWC.

Not sure how a graphic illustrating coaches at club level in a response to a discussion about club coaches manages to conveniently ignores test coaches. But dont’ let me stop you feeling all aggrieved and offended - it is Tuesday after all.

I’ve got an idea - why don’t you list the head coaches for the next RWC? That could be interesting.

And, please, do that in a separate thread. This thread is about the exodus of players/coaches in 2019.

Now, I think of it. Maybe, if a mod would be so kind to move all these stats posts to a new, separate thread?

No way. They’re staying here. They’re relevant - to where they’ve gone.

@kruse said in Exodus 2019:

@derm-mccrum said in Exodus 2019:

@mariner4life said in Exodus 2019:

@derm-mccrum are those Irish squad sizes correct? Between 60 and 69 players? Does that include the reserves side?

All the 6 teams include both the senior and academy squads as they're called. In Ireland, we don't have "reserves' as such. The PRO14 Championship is 21 rounds, the European Cup has 6 pool rounds, (plus knockouts) and there's 10-12 tests to play, so players get game time. Last season, Leinster used 55 players during the season.

At the weekend just gone, they went away to Dragons in Wales. Cullen decided to throw his kids in at the deep end, minded by Grandad Fardy. 5 first team benchers, 11 second and third choice, and 7 academy 19/20 year olds - mainly in the backline. 4 of the academy kids scored on the night in a absolute routing 59-10. The academy keeps on giving.

Never mind the dry powder, metres-gained metrics, etc, etc... THIS, this gives me the fucking fear, as an All Blacks supporter.
It really sounds like Ireland has got their shit together.

Blame
Stephen Aboud, Academy Systems
Eddie O’Sullivan - Player Management
Eddie Wigglesworth, Player Succession Strategy,
David Nucifora, Performance Director,
Anthony Eddy, Sevens
& Joe Schmidt, National Test Team.
Phillip Browne, CEO

@derm-mccrum Then make a past-exodus thread.

@stargazer said in Exodus 2019:

@derm-mccrum Then make a past-exodus thread.

Ok, Herr Order

@stargazer said in Exodus 2019:

@derm-mccrum Then make a past-exodus thread.

It's not actually a real biggie. Don't let it stress you

@kruse said in Exodus 2019:

@derm-mccrum said in Exodus 2019:

@mariner4life said in Exodus 2019:

@derm-mccrum are those Irish squad sizes correct? Between 60 and 69 players? Does that include the reserves side?

All the 6 teams include both the senior and academy squads as they're called. In Ireland, we don't have "reserves' as such. The PRO14 Championship is 21 rounds, the European Cup has 6 pool rounds, (plus knockouts) and there's 10-12 tests to play, so players get game time. Last season, Leinster used 55 players during the season.

At the weekend just gone, they went away to Dragons in Wales. Cullen decided to throw his kids in at the deep end, minded by Grandad Fardy. 5 first team benchers, 11 second and third choice, and 7 academy 19/20 year olds - mainly in the backline. 4 of the academy kids scored on the night in a absolute routing 59-10. The academy keeps on giving.

Never mind the dry powder, metres-gained metrics, etc, etc... THIS, this gives me the fucking fear, as an All Blacks supporter.
It really sounds like Ireland has got their shit together.

of course they have, and it's fucking great. It's awesome to see what is achieved when the entire system is pointed in one direction. They have also made smart decisions with regards to personnel.

Add in their geographical advantages (5 other top-tier rugby nations within shorter flight times than it would take me to get to the capital city of my state, let alone country) and it's a strong, sustainable combination that should continue to deliver positive results.

@mariner4life said in Exodus 2019:

@kruse said in Exodus 2019:

@derm-mccrum said in Exodus 2019:

@mariner4life said in Exodus 2019:

@derm-mccrum are those Irish squad sizes correct? Between 60 and 69 players? Does that include the reserves side?

All the 6 teams include both the senior and academy squads as they're called. In Ireland, we don't have "reserves' as such. The PRO14 Championship is 21 rounds, the European Cup has 6 pool rounds, (plus knockouts) and there's 10-12 tests to play, so players get game time. Last season, Leinster used 55 players during the season.

At the weekend just gone, they went away to Dragons in Wales. Cullen decided to throw his kids in at the deep end, minded by Grandad Fardy. 5 first team benchers, 11 second and third choice, and 7 academy 19/20 year olds - mainly in the backline. 4 of the academy kids scored on the night in a absolute routing 59-10. The academy keeps on giving.

Never mind the dry powder, metres-gained metrics, etc, etc... THIS, this gives me the fucking fear, as an All Blacks supporter.
It really sounds like Ireland has got their shit together.

of course they have, and it's fucking great. It's awesome to see what is achieved when the entire system is pointed in one direction. They have also made smart decisions with regards to personnel.

Add in their geographical advantages (5 other top-tier rugby nations within shorter flight times than it would take me to get to the capital city of my state, let alone country) and it's a strong, sustainable combination that should continue to deliver positive results.

Wales and Scotland have started to follow suit - Wales now have about 60 in their academies and they are starting to bear fruit with more investment from WRU to come through.
Scotland have some green shoots starting but their playing pool isn't getting any bigger for now- and some of their key players are still going to England or France. Hogg the latest.