European Club Rugby

I just watched the replay of the Clermont v Ulster game. It was a good, entertaining game. Great to see Toeava score the opening try in the first minute! Toeava's season so far has been plagued by injury - it was only his 3rd start of the season (his 5th game overall this season, scoring his first try); it was also his first game (ever) in the European Champions Cup.

Clermont was dominant during the first 55 minutes of the game, scoring 28 unanswered points. Ulster wasn't that bad during that period, but just couldn't get through the French defence and couldn't quite handle some of the elusive Clermontois backs (including Abendanon, Lopez and Fofana) and some strong performing forwards (particularly, Lapandry, Vahaamina and young lock Iturria) , who kept the Ulster defence busy. From the 55th to about the 68th minute, the game seemed to turn and Ulster scored 3 tries in that short period. They were the better team during about 20 minutes, when the Ulster forwards showed how powerful they can be (Franco vd Merwe scored off a driving maul) and Tommy Bowe's first of his two tries came after strong scrummaging of the pack. At the end of the game, Clermont took control again and were deservedly awarded a penalty try when Ulster first-five Jackson knocked down a pass to the Clermont wing that would certainly have resulted in a try (as it happened close to the Ulster try line). Charles Piutau had a quiet night and didn't have much impact.

In pool 5 of the Champions Cup, Clermont now sits firmly at the top of the pool with 8 points more than Bordeaux and Ulster. [Saracens top Pool 3, also 8 points ahead of the next (Toulon), and Leinster have a 5 point lead over Montpellier in Pool 4. Pools 1 and 2 are much closer.]

Stand-out player was again Nick Abendanon, who scored a beauty of a try after an awesome cross-kick from Lopez. That was Abendanon's 2nd try of the game.

Does anyone know whether Gatland is allowed - and inclined - to select players for the B&I Lions who are playing in France? It would be madness not to select Abendanon if he can!

Saturday's Connacht v Wasps game was a pretty good match, with Connacht having the better of the earlier exchanges and then Wasps clawing their way back into the game and eventually controlling things for most of the second half. Wasps were ahead by 5 pints with the clocking ticking down and were playing keeps ball deep in their own half after a good turnover. They then conceded a penalty on the stroke of fun time, which Connacht booted into the corner, rumbled over for the try. The Connacht 10, who had a poor game from the kicking tee converted from the touchline to take the game away from Wasps after 82 odd minutes.

EPRC have since stated that the replacement referee was in error when he allowed Connacht to take the line out after time was up, so the try was awarded in error; however the result will stand. Wasps appear to have taken this on the chin without complaint but we might see a different view if they subsequently fail to qualify.

Marmion was all class again.

@Stargazer said in NH club rugby:

Does anyone know whether Gatland is allowed - and inclined - to select players for the B&I Lions who are playing in France? It would be madness not to select Abendanon if he can!

I saw one report that stated he may be considering Cipriani despite him not being in a national squad so that aspect is obviously not part of the criteria. It could be though that you need to be eligible for one of the BI & I teams which would exclude some overseas players depending on their 'home union'

@Catogrande said in NH club rugby:

Saturday's Connacht v Wasps game was a pretty good match, with Connacht having the better of the earlier exchanges and then Wasps clawing their way back into the game and eventually controlling things for most of the second half. Wasps were ahead by 5 pints with the clocking ticking down and were playing keeps ball deep in their own half after a good turnover. They then conceded a penalty on the stroke of fun time, which Connacht booted into the corner, rumbled over for the try. The Connacht 10, who had a poor game from the kicking tee converted from the touchline to take the game away from Wasps after 82 odd minutes.

EPRC have since stated that the replacement referee was in error when he allowed Connacht to take the line out after time was up, so the try was awarded in error; however the result will stand. Wasps appear to have taken this on the chin without complaint but we might see a different view if they subsequently fail to qualify.

Marmion was all class again.

Did Connaught ask the ref if they could go for the lineout? If he said yes then the error is solely his and it would be quite unfair to not let it stand.
As a replacement ref he possibly wasn't in tune with the time keeping.
Isn't this one of the law changes coming in?

Oh @Catogrande I din't see the game but saw that Bundee Aki was player of the match and had a good return to form. What was your assessment?

@Crucial said in NH club rugby:

@Catogrande said in NH club rugby:

Saturday's Connacht v Wasps game was a pretty good match, with Connacht having the better of the earlier exchanges and then Wasps clawing their way back into the game and eventually controlling things for most of the second half. Wasps were ahead by 5 pints with the clocking ticking down and were playing keeps ball deep in their own half after a good turnover. They then conceded a penalty on the stroke of fun time, which Connacht booted into the corner, rumbled over for the try. The Connacht 10, who had a poor game from the kicking tee converted from the touchline to take the game away from Wasps after 82 odd minutes.

EPRC have since stated that the replacement referee was in error when he allowed Connacht to take the line out after time was up, so the try was awarded in error; however the result will stand. Wasps appear to have taken this on the chin without complaint but we might see a different view if they subsequently fail to qualify.

Marmion was all class again.

Did Connaught ask the ref if they could go for the lineout? If he said yes then the error is solely his and it would be quite unfair to not let it stand.
As a replacement ref he possibly wasn't in tune with the time keeping.
Isn't this one of the law changes coming in?

They specially asked the question so yes it would be harsh not to let the result stand and TBH even if not you cannot have match results overturned due to a ref's error otherwise where would it all end?

The replacement ref was OK with the timekeeping as I understand it, just a mistake around the laws.

@Crucial Aki was pretty good, very strong in the tackle and made some hard yards in attack. More impressive though was his reading of the game - he just seemed to be in the right place, doing the right thing at the right time, just when it was most needed. However I would have picked Launchbury (again) as MoTM. His workrate was immense, he did all the second row duties at a very high level and then tackled and forced turnovers like a back row on top. He should have got MoTM last week and this week. He's in cracking form at the moment.

Muldoon told the ref that they should be able to take the lineout if they kicked for the corner and the ref agreed. TBF I wouldn't say no to him either...

@Margin_Walker said in NH club rugby:

Muldoon told the ref that they should be able to take the lineout if they kicked for the corner and the ref agreed. TBF I wouldn't say no to him either...

I think there is a bit of confusion around this situation at the moment due to the WR mix of sometimes announcing changes/ interpretations that take effect straight away and sometimes with a date.
eg I know this change is coming in but I can't remember if it is already in place or not.

@Crucial said in NH club rugby:

@Margin_Walker said in NH club rugby:

Muldoon told the ref that they should be able to take the lineout if they kicked for the corner and the ref agreed. TBF I wouldn't say no to him either...

I think there is a bit of confusion around this situation at the moment due to the WR mix of sometimes announcing changes/ interpretations that take effect straight away and sometimes with a date.
eg I know this change is coming in but I can't remember if it is already in place or not.

According to EPRC the line out should not have taken place, citing Law 5.7(e). This states:-

If time expires and the ball is not dead, or an awarded scrum or lineout has not been completed, the referee allows play to continue until the next time that the ball becomes dead. The ball becomes dead when the referee would have awarded a scrum, lineout, an option to the non-infringing team, drop out or after a conversion or successful penalty kick at goal. If a scrum has to be reset, the scrum has not been completed. If time expires and a mark, free kick or penalty kick is then awarded, the referee allows play to continue.

Like most laws there is a degree of interpretation. In regard to the line out issue as I see it (interpret it). The penalty is awarded and can be taken despite time being up. Instead of a penalty you can opt for a scrum and then play would cease the next time the ball goes dead. You may also opt for a kick to touch but the important thing here is that the award is the kick, not the subsequent line out. Therefore after the kick has been taken play ends when the ball next goes dead, which in this instant is as soon as it goes into touch.

@Catogrande said in NH club rugby:

@Crucial said in NH club rugby:

@Margin_Walker said in NH club rugby:

Muldoon told the ref that they should be able to take the lineout if they kicked for the corner and the ref agreed. TBF I wouldn't say no to him either...

I think there is a bit of confusion around this situation at the moment due to the WR mix of sometimes announcing changes/ interpretations that take effect straight away and sometimes with a date.
eg I know this change is coming in but I can't remember if it is already in place or not.

According to EPRC the line out should not have taken place, citing Law 5.7(e). This states:-

If time expires and the ball is not dead, or an awarded scrum or lineout has not been completed, the referee allows play to continue until the next time that the ball becomes dead. The ball becomes dead when the referee would have awarded a scrum, lineout, an option to the non-infringing team, drop out or after a conversion or successful penalty kick at goal. If a scrum has to be reset, the scrum has not been completed. If time expires and a mark, free kick or penalty kick is then awarded, the referee allows play to continue.

Like most laws there is a degree of interpretation. In regard to the line out issue as I see it (interpret it). The penalty is awarded and can be taken despite time being up. Instead of a penalty you can opt for a scrum and then play would cease the next time the ball goes dead. You may also opt for a kick to touch but the important thing here is that the award is the kick, not the subsequent line out. Therefore after the kick has been taken play ends when the ball next goes dead, which in this instant is as soon as it goes into touch.

Cheers. I am aware of the law as it has been applied for years, just saying that there is a change proposed for this Law and can't remember how/when it is being brought in. Will google and come back.

I think it was in play for the Super Rugby season this year but I also found this..

"WORLD RUGBY HAVE announced a package of law trials that will be run across a number of international and domestic competitions in 2016.
Jonathan Sexton Some of these trials could be moved into Northern Hemisphere by August 2017.

The Pacific Challenge, U20 Trophy, Tbilisi Cup, Nations Cup, FFR Academy league, Australian NRC, Welsh Premiership and Colleges championship, and the RFU Army Premiership will be the testing grounds for some interesting new trial laws.
The trial laws that are successful will then move onto a far more extensive global trial in 2017, starting in January of that year in the Southern Hemisphere and August in the Northern Hemisphere.
Different laws will be trialled in different competitions, but what’s involved?

.....

End game

World Rugby is keen to strictly punish infringements in the dying moments of games, and will trial a new law in that regard.
If time has expired and the referee awards a mark, free-kick or penalty, play continues. Perhaps more importantly, if time has expired and a team kicks a penalty into touch, the referee allows the throw-in to be taken and play goes on until the ball next becomes dead.
Previously, any team kicking a penalty into touch with time expired was ending the game, so attacking teams chasing victory had to tap the penalty and run. The prospect of defending a five-metre lineout will make defensive sides think twice about infringing.

@Crucial I think that is a sensible change but odd to have it not running all at the same time. I suppose there is a valid reason...

@Crucial said in NH club rugby:

I think it was in play for the Super Rugby season this year but I also found this..

"WORLD RUGBY HAVE announced a package of law trials that will be run across a number of international and domestic competitions in 2016.
Jonathan Sexton Some of these trials could be moved into Northern Hemisphere by August 2017.

The Pacific Challenge, U20 Trophy, Tbilisi Cup, Nations Cup, FFR Academy league, Australian NRC, Welsh Premiership and Colleges championship, and the RFU Army Premiership will be the testing grounds for some interesting new trial laws.
The trial laws that are successful will then move onto a far more extensive global trial in 2017, starting in January of that year in the Southern Hemisphere and August in the Northern Hemisphere.
Different laws will be trialled in different competitions, but what’s involved?

.....

End game

World Rugby is keen to strictly punish infringements in the dying moments of games, and will trial a new law in that regard.
If time has expired and the referee awards a mark, free-kick or penalty, play continues. Perhaps more importantly, if time has expired and a team kicks a penalty into touch, the referee allows the throw-in to be taken and play goes on until the ball next becomes dead.
Previously, any team kicking a penalty into touch with time expired was ending the game, so attacking teams chasing victory had to tap the penalty and run. The prospect of defending a five-metre lineout will make defensive sides think twice about infringing.

This is correct. Both in 2016 Super Rugby and in this year's Mitre 10 Cup they trialled a law, which allows a team to kick for and take a lineout if they are awarded a penalty after time is expired.

Edited to add this link: http://www.sanzarrugby.com/superrugby/news/refs-and-law-variations-revealed/

"In addition to this, permitting teams to opt for a lineout after time has expired serves to disincentive opponents from infringing and aims to reward sides that are particularly strong set-piece exponents which, when coupled with the previously mentioned changes, encourages more attacking and competitive rugby.

@Catogrande said in NH club rugby:

@MiketheSnow said in NH club rugby:

Great Rare home win for the Scarlets against Toulon
There you go mate. Got your typo sorted.

Very true, but that could be said for the majority of teams who've played Toulon in European competition

@MiketheSnow said in NH club rugby:

@Catogrande said in NH club rugby:

@MiketheSnow said in NH club rugby:

Great Rare home win for the Scarlets against Toulon
There you go mate. Got your typo sorted.

Very true, but that could be said for the majority of teams who've played Toulon in European competition

Whilst this is patently true, mentioning it would not help me in having a dig.

Connaught currently having major problems (especially in the backs) with nearly two dozen of their available players out through injury or enforced rest.
Lam tried to bring his son into the squad from the academy side but the IRFU refused permission on the basis he was a foreigner.
I wonder if the decision was tainted by Lam's decision to leave?

@Crucial maybe they don't see a pub side as worthy of a pro academy player?

@Crucial said in NH club rugby:

Connaught currently having major problems (especially in the backs) with nearly two dozen of their available players out through injury or enforced rest.
Lam tried to bring his son into the squad from the academy side but the IRFU refused permission on the basis he was a foreigner.
I wonder if the decision was tainted by Lam's decision to leave?

Connacht, not Connaught.
The story on this seems to change day to day. The provinces are meant to be developing Irish qualified players from now on. Nucifora has been laying down the law on this to Connacht, Ulster and Leinster. But he's made an exception for Munster to allow them extend Taute's short term injury cover contract for Sailii until end of the season even though Sailii is now back playing. Media is now focusing on this contradiction and stirring things up with other three provinces.

@Pot-Hale said in NH club rugby:

@Crucial said in NH club rugby:

Connaught currently having major problems (especially in the backs) with nearly two dozen of their available players out through injury or enforced rest.
Lam tried to bring his son into the squad from the academy side but the IRFU refused permission on the basis he was a foreigner.
I wonder if the decision was tainted by Lam's decision to leave?

Connacht, not Connaught.
The story on this seems to change day to day. The provinces are meant to be developing Irish qualified players from now on. Nucifora has been laying down the law on this to Connacht, Ulster and Leinster. But he's made an exception for Munster to allow them extend Taute's short term injury cover contract for Sailii until end of the season even though Sailii is now back playing. Media is now focusing on this contradiction and stirring things up with other three provinces.

Apologies, typing on phone and not looking at autocorrect.

Nuci has a track record of upsetting apple carts. He's on his third country of doing it now.

@Crucial said in NH club rugby:

Nuci has a track record of upsetting apple carts. He's on his third country of doing it now.

I'm ok with his grand plan if it keeps resulting in development of new Irish players being capped as occurred in the last 12 months.

Lam said a few weeks ago that he'd relinquished control of recruitment of new players into the squad given his departure in a few months. That is now being managed by other coaching staff with Nucifora's continuing oversight. His son, Mitch, is playing with Connacht Eagles currently. But he may leave for U.K. with his family so the hard decision may be that those committed long-term to the club continue to be used or get a step up.

Have we done Cockrill getting shitcanned at Leicester after him & Mauger couldn't decide who was setting out the gameplan?

Mauger in interim control, but with every man & his dog trying to shove Martin Johnson in there

@gollum

That's the first time I've even heard Johnson's name mentioned in relation to it and even then, the author was just reeling off ex Leicester players with coaching experience. Who's every man and his dog in this case?

In other news, Manu Tuilagi gone for the season with knee ligament damage picked up at the weekend. Unrelated to his previous injuries.

@Pot-Hale said in NH club rugby:

@Crucial said in NH club rugby:

Nuci has a track record of upsetting apple carts. He's on his third country of doing it now.

I'm ok with his grand plan if it keeps resulting in development of new Irish players being capped as occurred in the last 12 months.

Lam said a few weeks ago that he'd relinquished control of recruitment of new players into the squad given his departure in a few months. That is now being managed by other coaching staff with Nucifora's continuing oversight. His son, Mitch, is playing with Connacht Eagles currently. But he may leave for U.K. with his family so the hard decision may be that those committed long-term to the club continue to be used or get a step up.

That is all understandable, however rules are made to be bent when need be and the current injury situation probably warrants a little bending of the rules, especially when other teams have had concessions.

I suspect that it is a case of no favours going Lam's way after he decide to leave. Nuci possibly takes it as a personal slight. Also don't forget that Nuci was pushed/left his job at the Blues in favour of Lam so there is a fair bit of untold history in this soap opera.

@Margin_Walker

Times this morning was raving it up re Johnno & Matt Dawson tossed his name out on BBC radio.

@gollum

Ah, cheers. Hadn't seen that. Can't see it at all, as the guy hasn't had a job in rugby for more than 5 years now.

@Margin_Walker

It could be viable if they just need a hands off motivational director & let Mauger decide the tactics & coach

The issue with Cockerill v Mauger is both were hands on tracksuit managers telling the players what they wanted every day. And they each wanted different things. And Cockerill was VERY vocal & "my way of the highway" with players - hence them all leaving.

But yeah, if they want an actual hands on coach, a guy who has done nothing in rugby for 5 years does not exactly look like what they need.

Speaking of Leicester...
Manu Tuilagi out of 6 Naions and B&I Lions tour - gone for 6 to 9 months with a cruciate knee ligament strain picked up in the New Years day defeat to Saracens....

@Crucial said in NH club rugby:

@Pot-Hale said in NH club rugby:

@Crucial said in NH club rugby:

Nuci has a track record of upsetting apple carts. He's on his third country of doing it now.

I'm ok with his grand plan if it keeps resulting in development of new Irish players being capped as occurred in the last 12 months.

Lam said a few weeks ago that he'd relinquished control of recruitment of new players into the squad given his departure in a few months. That is now being managed by other coaching staff with Nucifora's continuing oversight. His son, Mitch, is playing with Connacht Eagles currently. But he may leave for U.K. with his family so the hard decision may be that those committed long-term to the club continue to be used or get a step up.

That is all understandable, however rules are made to be bent when need be and the current injury situation probably warrants a little bending of the rules, especially when other teams have had concessions.

I suspect that it is a case of no favours going Lam's way after he decide to leave. Nuci possibly takes it as a personal slight. Also don't forget that Nuci was pushed/left his job at the Blues in favour of Lam so there is a fair bit of untold history in this soap opera.

True that. I don't think Ulster or Leinster figure they've had any favours given so far. Pienaar's required departure at season end and van der Merwe going from Ulster. Nuci's refusal on a foreign Leinster 10 resulting in Carberry's promotion was a good move. Nacewa and Kirchener's contracts are also up at season end but early noises about Dagg being a replacement don't seem realistic.

@Margin_Walker said in NH club rugby:

In other news, Manu Tuilagi gone for the season with knee ligament damage picked up at the weekend. Unrelated to his previous injuries.

He just can't get a break.

The Tusi Pisi red-card:

looks like he jumped, realised he had no show and readied for the contact.

Is this one where the guys landing was a factor in the colour of the card? If he had flipped a bit more, landed on his feet, run away and scored would they still have carded Pisi?

[Brit Journo Mode] Clear red card, made no attempt at all to do anything to avoid the collision, things like this must be taken out of the game. No doubt if the player was dressed in Black though, would have gotten away with a warning [/Brit Journo Mode]

Honestly, the fact that is a red, and the fact that most people agree that it should be a red, leaves me in fear for the game.

@MajorRage Why shouldn't it be a red?

Because punching is a red card. Kicking is a red card. Trying on purpose to inflict physical injury on your opponent is a red card.

Not jumping as high as another bloke to catch a ball should not be a sending off offense.

To counter - why should it be a red card?

@Bones
Pisi was clearly going for the ball.

He was on a running line that saw him arrive under the ball.

As MR notes the other guy jumped higher and not jumping as high shouldn't be a red card offence.

Furthermore Pisi braced for the impact of a guy leading with his legs.

They need to change the laws, like make jumping illegal or something, because at the moment you've got two guys legitimately going for the ball with a random chance of a game changing red being dished out.

Either that or accept there are risks with jumping for the ball and stop carding players.