Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..)

@mantissanet said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):

Can’t leave Ardie out… he is mad good. What he lacks in beef at 8 is only measured on a scale IMO.
And at 15 you guys are spoilt fullstop….I wouldn’t moan too much

In the last 3-4 years Hansen, (& by extension Foster) have been afraid of making tough calls at 10, 12/13, in the back-row, back-three, etc.. at the risk of damaging egos have been forced to strike a compromise by selecting certain players out of position rather than benching them.

It should be one or the other, but Foster is sentimental with certain players & is seemingly too afraid to make tough calls, hence he'd rather play someone like Ardie or Beauden out of position than potentially damage some egos by dropping them to the reserves (playing in different roles which could potentially be more beneficial towards the team's overall performance).

Having 4 play-makers (B.Barrett, McKenzie J.Barrett, Mo'unga) all in the same 23 is completely unnecessary & hurts the balance of the team.

@kiwi_expat

There are actually five (if you count Jordie) as Havili is a playmaker too.

Either way, the point about too many playmakers is fair.

The thread title brings memories of 6th form English essays…

@billy-tell this guy flaunting his higher education

@kiwi_expat Apparently you don’t seem too keen on settled combos?? If players aren’t playing as combos together regularly… some brilliant individual skills will invariably be lost don’t you think?….ok …apologies … ignore….

12-13 rules here. And the speed he offers to them is unquantifiable IMO

@kiwi_expat said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):

@mantissanet said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):

Can’t leave Ardie out… he is mad good. What he lacks in beef at 8 is only measured on a scale IMO.
And at 15 you guys are spoilt fullstop….I wouldn’t moan too much

In the last 3-4 years Hansen, (& by extension Foster) have been afraid of making tough calls at 10, 12/13, in the back-row, back-three, etc.. at the risk of damaging egos have been forced to strike a compromise by selecting certain players out of position rather than benching them.

It should be one or the other, but Foster is sentimental with certain players & is seemingly too afraid to make tough calls, hence he'd rather play someone like Ardie or Beauden out of position than potentially damage some egos by dropping them to the reserves (playing in different roles which could potentially be more beneficial towards the team's overall performance).

Having 4 play-makers (B.Barrett, McKenzie J.Barrett, Mo'unga) all in the same 23 is completely unnecessary & hurts the balance of the team.

When do we stop saying Ardie is “out of position” at no.8 when he has played more there for the Canes and ABs in the last 3 seasons than he has at openside.

I seriously think that last week and this team some of the selections are forced on us because of injury and game fitness.

Just on the playmakers, let’s not forget that Hansen also played Carter, Cruden and Beaudie all in the same 22/23 on several occasions. Add in Bender and Dagg who also liked to come into the line to create/play make also. That was pretty successful.

@kiwi_expat sounds like you have Jordies cock stuck down your throat. Open the other eye and look at the good Dmac does and the mistakes that Jordie makes for once you guys. Neither are perfect, neither are bad players. Both have their different attributes. The coach deems one as the better fit #15 for our team. And that coach knows a bit more about rugby than the rest of us.

I’m sick of some of you eye-patch “supporters” hating on certain players and cherry picking everything about them. Look at them from a fair perspective and open the other eye. The person you put on a pedi stool makes a shit load of mistakes too but you would never acknowledge it because it doesn’t support your agenda.

That has been my Ted talk.

@yeahtheboys said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):

pedi stool

I think this is the highest value offering from your post. I want one.

@mantissanet said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):

Can’t leave Ardie out… he is mad good.

And that's exactly the problem isn't it. Foster knows he is good, as we all do, but sticking him in at the starting 8 just to get him on the field isn't the right answer when its detrimental to the balance of the team.

Good post @kiwi_expat - totally agree

@bones said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):

@yeahtheboys said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):

pedi stool

I think this is the highest value offering from your post. I want one.

Pedi (foot) stool

@bones said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):

@billy-tell this guy flaunting his higher education

English 6th Form Certificate - Final Exam, third term: All Blacks (30 points)

Candidates are required to discuss the following topic "Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..)"

Candidates have 60 minutes in which to formulate their response. Word limit 1000 words. Marks will be awarded for clear structure, original ideas and sound reasoning. Any references must be cited at the end of the essay. Black or blue-point pen only. Any corrections should be clearly indicated.

Yeah nah.

@billy-tell said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):

@bones said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):

@billy-tell this guy flaunting his higher education

English 6th Form Certificate - Final Exam, third term: All Blacks (30 points)

Candidates are required to discuss the following topic "Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..)"

Candidates have 60 minutes in which to formulate their response. Word limit 1000 words. Marks will be awarded for clear structure, original ideas and sound reasoning. Any references must be cited at the end of the essay. Black or blue-point pen only. Any corrections should be clearly indicated.

Yeah nah.

NCEA 2 old man

@machpants said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):

@billy-tell said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):

@bones said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):

@billy-tell this guy flaunting his higher education

English 6th Form Certificate - Final Exam, third term: All Blacks (30 points)

Candidates are required to discuss the following topic "Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..)"

Candidates have 60 minutes in which to formulate their response. Word limit 1000 words. Marks will be awarded for clear structure, original ideas and sound reasoning. Any references must be cited at the end of the essay. Black or blue-point pen only. Any corrections should be clearly indicated.

Yeah nah.

NCEA 2 old man

Is that the new system where you get a little gold star and a “good work” sticker for participating?

@billy-tell said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):

@machpants said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):

@billy-tell said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):

@bones said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):

@billy-tell this guy flaunting his higher education

English 6th Form Certificate - Final Exam, third term: All Blacks (30 points)

Candidates are required to discuss the following topic "Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..)"

Candidates have 60 minutes in which to formulate their response. Word limit 1000 words. Marks will be awarded for clear structure, original ideas and sound reasoning. Any references must be cited at the end of the essay. Black or blue-point pen only. Any corrections should be clearly indicated.

Yeah nah.

NCEA 2 old man

Is that the new system where you get a little gold star and a “good work” sticker for participating?

And you can't use red pen to mark it.

Both my boys have passed this year already (level 1 and 3), and they've not even sat their externals. Easy life

@yeahtheboys said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):

I’m sick of some of you eye-patch “supporters” hating on certain players and cherry picking everything about them.

I don't think that's the case though. @kiwi_expat has clearly set out why he thinks both Ardie and DMac are undersized. Not being parochial at all - but assessing what they see in the game.

I don't disagree. Jordie's size and boot offers something different. We should be looking at how we'll go against physically confrontational teams - and when you get into that battle (on a good day England, SA, Lions, Aus , France) then size does become important. So I have sympathy for the view -and I think DMac brings a lot to the table, particularly off the bench. You can't coach speed, and he's got it.

DMac’s best position is probably 10, not that different a player than RM. awesome with front foot ball, probably edges RM at super level at kicking a team around the park.

Neither has shown that ability at Test level, but score or set up exciting trys. If plan A doesn’t work, cupboard is bare.

Similar goal kicking too.

@bones said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):

@yeahtheboys said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):

pedi stool

I think this is the highest value offering from your post. I want one.

Here you go honey:

As for some of the rest of it, esp about weight, Jacobson is only a few kg heavier (if you believe any of the weights on the internet). Some players also punch well above their weight in terms of impact. Sam Cane is one of them.

I'm yet to see this strong defence the Jordie fan boys talk about.

If Foster has a choice to make in the 23 it is Beauden or Jordie, not both.

@yeahtheboys said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):

have Jordies cock stuck down your throat.

Yeah nothing “eye patch” about that one. I’d say zero self-awareness but that would be far too kind.

On the Ardie thing. He’s not out of position at 8 any more because he plays there so often. But he’s not the best test level option there. Imho that’s Jacobsen. Ardie is a brilliant bench option though.

@kiwi_expat said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):

Spencer-like players in McKenzie & B.Barrett for their dual-playmaker axis in 2018 over Mo'unga

ah, Richie Mo'unga is the Carlos Spencer you buy from Wish

@yeahtheboys said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):

I’m sick of some of you eye-patch “supporters” hating on certain players and cherry picking everything about them

fuck i so totally agree with it.

I believe two things:

Some of you have entrenched bias, and can't see past that when evaluating a players worth to the side

and

all the Barretts are shit and should stick to Super Rugby

DMac hasn't dominated been good since his injury.

I can't recall the last time Ardie had a positive impact in Test rugby.

McKenzie is pretty good positionally in general I reckon. Better than Jordie, though he's not bad either.
He's small, and he runs sideways when nothing is on. His decisions when things are on, are generally good. If nothing is on and you're a midget, buying some time by running sideways isn't actually the worst option, even though it is ugly as fuuuuck to watch.
Fact is Foster seems set on the dual playmaker, and McKenzie probably is the best of them in that role.

while we are having this discussion, again

DMac is far better under the high ball than he is given credit for. It's not just about being tall guys.

@mariner4life said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):

@yeahtheboys said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):

I’m sick of some of you eye-patch “supporters” hating on certain players and cherry picking everything about them

fuck i so totally agree with it.

I believe two things:

Some of you have entrenched bias, and can't see past that when evaluating a players worth to the side

and

all the Barretts are shit and should stick to Super Rugby

https://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pinterest.com%2Fpin%2F505810601877504926%2F&psig=AOvVaw1XgI5gdDFxDwccUPZ14LcH&ust=1628898829048000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAsQjRxqFwoTCJi07pLXrPICFQAAAAAdAAAAABAD

@kiwi_expat I think you are way off beam in your analysis. Have you ever watched how opposition backlines react to DMacs field coverage? He constantly creates threats, and stretches the opposition to counter, popping up across the width of the park. I would have thought that wore down the opposition to some degree. Not sure how you and others regard him as such a liability in everything he does at high level.

Jordie is a great player and I think he could be a world class 12, but the Hurricanes make him play a certain type of game at 15 only, to cover limitations around him. He does that extremely well.

It is staggering to see how there is a huge outcry again about 15 when that is not what the Aussie comeback or heavy penalty count for AB's was all about.

@yeahtheboys well said!

@arhs said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):

@kiwi_expat I think you are way off beam in your analysis. Have you ever watched how opposition backlines react to DMacs field coverage? He constantly creates threats, and stretches the opposition to counter, popping up across the width of the park. I would have thought that wore down the opposition to some degree. Not sure how you and others regard him as such a liability in everything he does at high level.

thats not untrue....but i dont think he converts anywhere near as many as he should, he might stretch the defence and then throw a hospital pass or not see what he's created and take it into contact whilst isolated...maybe he's not tall enough too see everything

that why what he does, in my mind, works so much better as an impact when the team is tired, doing what he does in the first 20min with fresh jackles is dangerous

@arhs said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):

@kiwi_expat I think you are way off beam in your analysis. Have you ever watched how opposition backlines react to DMacs field coverage? He constantly creates threats, and stretches the opposition to counter, popping up across the width of the park. I would have thought that wore down the opposition to some degree. Not sure how you and others regard him as such a liability in everything he does at high level.

We're talking about Test rugby here. The one where he constantly goes backwards or runs away from support so our forwards have to go backwards to support him, or he gives hospital passes to avoid getting tackled.

@antipodean said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):

@arhs said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):

@kiwi_expat I think you are way off beam in your analysis. Have you ever watched how opposition backlines react to DMacs field coverage? He constantly creates threats, and stretches the opposition to counter, popping up across the width of the park. I would have thought that wore down the opposition to some degree. Not sure how you and others regard him as such a liability in everything he does at high level.

We're talking about Test rugby here. The one where he constantly goes backwards or runs away from support so our forwards have to go backwards to support him, or he gives hospital passes to avoid getting tackled.

He did that at least three times last test, looked flash but ABs ended up in s much worse position afterwards. It's really ineffective and undesirable at international level. Foster & Aaron specifically pointed out going wide to early, and DMac as one of the decision makers was one of the worst for that

@machpants its also hard to anticipate so the other backs seem to struggle to be in the right position IF he does create something

@arhs

I do find it funny that we spend so much time pissing around about 15, when our problems are with our go forward up front, our discipline, and our strategy/tactics which are the primary responsibility of our main playmaker.

I’m really starting to wonder whether Mo’unga can drive a team around the field - they seem set on having others there to help him do his job.

@gt12 said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):

@arhs

I do find it funny that we spend so much time pissing around about 15, when our problems are with our go forward up front, our discipline, and our strategy/tactics which are the primary responsibility of our main playmaker.

I’m really starting to wonder whether Mo’unga can drive a team around the field - they seem set on having others there to help him do his job.

Yeah they took it wide too early, because that what the play makers called. Smith mentioned that specifically, there were so many options, they tried them too early

@machpants said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):

@gt12 said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):

@arhs

I do find it funny that we spend so much time pissing around about 15, when our problems are with our go forward up front, our discipline, and our strategy/tactics which are the primary responsibility of our main playmaker.

I’m really starting to wonder whether Mo’unga can drive a team around the field - they seem set on having others there to help him do his job.

Yeah they took it wide too early, because that what the play makers called. Smith mentioned that specifically, there were so many options, they tried them too early

Yeah, I heard him talk about that and liked the fact that he said that he could also improve - they seem to have leadership teams and his appears to be defense, so he wasn't necessarily being as vocal as he could have. I'd like to know who drives the attack, as he didn't mention Dmac by name, but I assume it is Mo'unga, Havili, and Dmac. It may be too many cooks and broth situation, so Dmac probably has some blame.

Long story short the coaching staff became totally ambivelant about how the game should be played and the positional requirements at All Black level.

They started to fetishise getting in the squad rather than the 23 or 15.

There are a lot of issues but I think most start from there. How many players currently own their All Black jersey? Fuck all.

A big part of rugby is winning the collisions.

When you've got a lot of little guys in the team, you start to lose too many and too many in a row - and you get hurt.

You need a few playmakers - the best of whom tend to be a bit smaller and you have to accept they'll get flattened or run over occasionally - but, I like to have plenty of big guys around them so that there's bail out options regularly on hand and guys who can cover defensively. I miss Ma'a Nonu!

When we start fielding an under-sized 8 in Ardie, Aaron Smith, Mo'unga, Havili (a smallish 12), Sevu Reece and DMac that's starting to get a bit Japan-like to me.

I'm inclined to throw in a few more bigger bodies.

Most points ever put on Aussie. Foster 4 lyf.

@yeetyaah said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):

Most points ever put on Aussie. Foster 4 lyf.

Yeah, nah

Rennie found out.

@bones said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):

Rennie found out.

No Professor on the staff.