All Blacks 2022

@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:

@old-samurai-jack said in All Blacks 2022:

You can see the developments in the Six Nations that counter the rush defense. Playing very deep in the backs with very deep passes, getting go forward up the middle with your big ball running tighties, a different strategic kicking game, and different tactics at the breakdown(Jeff Wilson highlighted on the Breakdown). Unfortunately, none of these "innovations" come from NZ.

lots of good old fashioned runarounds too, like Sexton has been doing for years, to get the ball wider AND provide the defense with one more guy to think about rather than just aiming up and smashing blokes

Let's bring back some good old Going brothers triple scissors.

@crucial Sadly most people on the Fern would be too young to have ever seen them play live (not me though!) but they were certainly great to watch with their tricky moves coming when least expected.

Even a momentary glimpse of the old Okara Park with a crowd that would have pleased the North Auckland RFU (as it was known in those days) Treasurer.

@higgins surely TVNZ must have some tape of one of those moves.

@crucial There as a couple of Sid and Brian Going moves included in the youtube clip I have just this minute attached above in my earlier post. Next time I see Keith Quinn I will see if he can ask his acquaintances at TVNZ if they have any.

And here is a bit more on the Going family

This one refers to to Triple Sissors Move

@kirwan said in All Blacks 2022:

Just trying to follow the logic

That's a slippery slope to nowhere you're on there fella.

Oh and coaches have no bearing on anything.

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

@toddy said in All Blacks 2022:

@machpants I'm hoping that for the first time in 5-6 years the Crusaders AB's are pacing themselves. Taylor has previously played like a man possessed during Super rugby only to then limp through test matches. Whitelock doesn't appear to be putting it all the line at the moment. Mo'unga looks only slightly better than Garden-Bachop etc.

It's what I'm hoping anyway.

I don't care that they are being shown up. I think it is good for the ABs (if the selectors take notice)

Other sides are playing a more physical style against them and not allowing their weak runners and 'soaking' tacklers any leeway.

If this means that the ABs ditch the Bridges, Havilis, Taylors and Moodys then all the better.

Their real weakness is the loose forwards though. Lots of very busy but non-dominant players.

A good, winning coach would have been able to predict those problems and sort them out in the first 1 or 2 games....

@tim said in All Blacks 2022:

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I read the opening paragraph, and had a grin, Reason is hardly a messiah on watching rugby.
I remember in 2015 when one Richie McCaw missed 2 tackles on Tevita Li in the Blues match (I think he was playing for Blues then), and every rugby forum etc was yelling he to bloody old,, dump him get in the newbies etc. Seems the coaches didn't read them then and doubt whether they will now.

@tim reading the end of that article about an oldies line up makes me realise what an anomaly Ben Smith was a decade ago, he didn't become a regular at test level until he turned 26

@dan54 said in All Blacks 2022:

@tim said in All Blacks 2022:

View embedded content

I read the opening paragraph, and had a grin, Reason is hardly a messiah on watching rugby.
I remember in 2015 when one Richie McCaw missed 2 tackles on Tevita Li in the Blues match (I think he was playing for Blues then), and every rugby forum etc was yelling he to bloody old,, dump him get in the newbies etc. Seems the coaches didn't read them then and doubt whether they will now.

To be fair, the coaches/selectors in 2015 had earned a bit more trust...

Of course, I haven't even clicked on the link, so I'm an authority.

@dan54 That was just further proof that he didn't give a shit about Super Rugby, making guys like Tevita Li look like world beaters.

@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:

@crazy-horse said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@kirwan said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:

@machpants said in All Blacks 2022:

Because it was in NZ and we didn't win, that's a loss as far as I'm concerned. The Lions were pretty shit, and turned up so late and with so little prep. But we had a dumb red card, then a dumber decision to put Savea back on the wing where he shelled a couple of almost cert tries, and choked like '07.

Gats gets a lot of stick on here, but I really rate him as a coach. That Lions side were very well drilled.

What doesn't get much air time is the injuries that smashed the ABs, and left the Lions largely untouched. Losing Ben Smith, a midfield that had Laumape on debut -- Naholo getting his arm broken, it just was really an unlucky series for the ABs

Don't really rate Gatland... in that Lions series we won the first one comfortably, in those last two tests the Lions focused on rushing defence, we didn't adapt, so we were very predictable on attack, making it way too easy for them to nullify us.

So Gatland adjusted his tactics and nullified our attack, and our coaches didn't handle it and it's Gatland you don't rate?

Just trying to follow the logic.

Everyone constantly uses a rushing defence, it was hardly tactical rocket science by Gatland to focus on it even more as everyone knew our attack was always going to be far more lethal than theirs - it was up to our playmakers 9 & 10 to adjust to the rushing defence by kicking into space behind them with wiper kicks etc turning the Lions around... one of the very few times we did that was in the 3rd test in the last 10 minutes where we camped in their half, ABs won a penalty giving us a very handy shot at goal, but for some strange reason the ref reversed the penalty & the match ended in a draw.

Adapting to the rush defense has proven to be not so easy for us. Five years on and we are still pretty much impotent against it. Have to give that Lions team credit.

we did fine in the first test. Hit the rush at the interface between the ruck and the 10, lots of inside balls and diagonal running.

I don't think chips are the answer to rush, it's fast ruck ball. Recycle hard, go again, make the rush keep rushing and get tired. Reap the rewards at the end of the game. We just suffer int eh forwards, so get horrifically static ball, and our forwards are no longer as good ball players as the NH

There's a lot of times you can't get quick recycled ball though, when you don't make any ground you have to use a smart kicking game... agree that you don't want to use the short kicking game too much to counter the rushing defence, on most occasions would execute longer kicks, angled kicks towards the sideline or corners into plenty of space so they only have the option of attacking from one side of the field from deep.

Reckon our forwards ball running is not as good as what it was because they don't take it through enough phases & also don't consistently get enough numbers to clean out, giving us static ball... just about doing the basics properly, Ireland & France did that, which is why they stuffed us so badly in the forwards.

@african-monkey said in All Blacks 2022:

@dan54 That was just further proof that he didn't give a shit about Super Rugby, making guys like Tevita Li look like world beaters.

Or maybe it's what everyone know? It is not really reasonable to expect players to be on top of game all year? Or simply that he was caught like Taylor and Whitelock going wrong way?

my main takeaway from that article is

jesus NZ A would suck right now.

The problem is not just their age, it's how they play. Who in our entire tight 5 can sit a guy on his ass in a tackle, or run through him, at test level? I would pretty much say the probably #3 hooker can fucking run, and Ofa can hit (but gets far too many wrong). That's it.

you can extend that to the whole pack. Cane can hit. Not many others can. And not many can run over a bloke (at test level, not Super Rugby, don't fucking start). We have depowered our rugby to play this high tempo skill stuff.

Problem being our skills aren't there, and you don't get to play tempo just because you want to.

At least the last time this happened, Henry came in an took immediate steps. We haven't even started rectifying it. Because we appear to have lost out single-minded purpose as a rugby nation.

@mariner4life The good news is our new coach identified this problem prior to being appointed.

@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
We have depowered our rugby to play this high tempo skill stuff.

Problem being our skills aren't there, and you don't get to play tempo just because you want to.

I started typing something out yesterday along the same lines then deleted it because I couldn't be bothered. We are trying to play too fast and we don't have the skills to consistently pull it off.

@antipodean said in All Blacks 2022:

@mariner4life The good news is our new coach identified this problem prior to being appointed.

remember when we didn't have a hooker so we went and built Dane Coles?

Dane Coles was a very ordinary player even at Super level that someone saw something in. He became a massive point of difference in one of the greatest teams of all time. That didn't happen by accident.

Areas of weakness were identified, and new players were built. Is there any evidence of that happening since 2016?

@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:

@antipodean said in All Blacks 2022:

@mariner4life The good news is our new coach identified this problem prior to being appointed.

remember when we didn't have a hooker so we went and built Dane Coles?

Dane Coles was a very ordinary player even at Super level that someone saw something in. He became a massive point of difference in one of the greatest teams of all time. That didn't happen by accident.

Areas of weakness were identified, and new players were built. Is there any evidence of that happening since 2016?

Lack of distribution on the wing, and bridge

@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:

@antipodean said in All Blacks 2022:

@mariner4life The good news is our new coach identified this problem prior to being appointed.

remember when we didn't have a hooker so we went and built Dane Coles?

Dane Coles was a very ordinary player even at Super level that someone saw something in. He became a massive point of difference in one of the greatest teams of all time. That didn't happen by accident.

Areas of weakness were identified, and new players were built. Is there any evidence of that happening since 2016?

Coles was never a very ordinary player - has always had excellent ball skills & a lot of pace, also good in the scrum... he use to have a couple of weaknesses though, for a fair while his lineout throwing was pretty poor & he use to lack discipline giving away too many silly penalties, once he got those things right he become an excellent all-round hooker.

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:

@antipodean said in All Blacks 2022:

@mariner4life The good news is our new coach identified this problem prior to being appointed.

remember when we didn't have a hooker so we went and built Dane Coles?

Dane Coles was a very ordinary player even at Super level that someone saw something in. He became a massive point of difference in one of the greatest teams of all time. That didn't happen by accident.

Areas of weakness were identified, and new players were built. Is there any evidence of that happening since 2016?

Coles was never a very ordinary player - has always had excellent ball skills & a lot of pace, also good in the scrum... he use to have a couple of weaknesses though, for a fair while his lineout throwing was pretty poor & he use to lack discipline giving away too many silly penalties, once he got those things right he become an excellent all-round hooker.

No he was too small, and coaches got him to bulk up, and gave him the time to get used to carrying the weight. They accepted he would have a worse year, but we're happy to play the long game. It was all from ABs coaches

@machpants said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:

@antipodean said in All Blacks 2022:

@mariner4life The good news is our new coach identified this problem prior to being appointed.

remember when we didn't have a hooker so we went and built Dane Coles?

Dane Coles was a very ordinary player even at Super level that someone saw something in. He became a massive point of difference in one of the greatest teams of all time. That didn't happen by accident.

Areas of weakness were identified, and new players were built. Is there any evidence of that happening since 2016?

Coles was never a very ordinary player - has always had excellent ball skills & a lot of pace, also good in the scrum... he use to have a couple of weaknesses though, for a fair while his lineout throwing was pretty poor & he use to lack discipline giving away too many silly penalties, once he got those things right he become an excellent all-round hooker.

No he was too small, and coaches got him to bulk up, and gave him the time to get used to carrying the weight. They accepted he would have a worse year, but we're happy to play the long game. It was all from ABs coaches

Never thought he was too small before he started playing for the ABs, sure he did bulk up a bit, as a lot of players do throughout their careers... he couldn't have added too much weight though to his frame as he's always had the pace of a back, even though 35 now the bloke still shows how much speed he has off the mark.

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@machpants said in All Blacks 2022:

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:

@antipodean said in All Blacks 2022:

@mariner4life The good news is our new coach identified this problem prior to being appointed.

remember when we didn't have a hooker so we went and built Dane Coles?

Dane Coles was a very ordinary player even at Super level that someone saw something in. He became a massive point of difference in one of the greatest teams of all time. That didn't happen by accident.

Areas of weakness were identified, and new players were built. Is there any evidence of that happening since 2016?

Coles was never a very ordinary player - has always had excellent ball skills & a lot of pace, also good in the scrum... he use to have a couple of weaknesses though, for a fair while his lineout throwing was pretty poor & he use to lack discipline giving away too many silly penalties, once he got those things right he become an excellent all-round hooker.

No he was too small, and coaches got him to bulk up, and gave him the time to get used to carrying the weight. They accepted he would have a worse year, but we're happy to play the long game. It was all from ABs coaches

Never thought he was too small before he started playing for the ABs, sure he did bulk up a bit, as a lot of players do throughout their careers... he couldn't have added too much weight though to his frame as he's always had the pace of a back, even though 35 now the bloke still shows how much speed he has off the mark.

He was too small, it was all up front at the time. ABs coaches and Coles talked about his off season increase. It was planned, and executed, to allow a specific gap too be covered in ABs. And they were happy to take the short term pain for long term gain

@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:

my main takeaway from that article is

jesus NZ A would suck right now.

The problem is not just their age, it's how they play. Who in our entire tight 5 can sit a guy on his ass in a tackle, or run through him, at test level? I would pretty much say the probably #3 hooker can fucking run, and Ofa can hit (but gets far too many wrong). That's it.

you can extend that to the whole pack. Cane can hit. Not many others can. And not many can run over a bloke (at test level, not Super Rugby, don't fucking start). We have depowered our rugby to play this high tempo skill stuff.

Problem being our skills aren't there, and you don't get to play tempo just because you want to.

At least the last time this happened, Henry came in an took immediate steps. We haven't even started rectifying it. Because we appear to have lost out single-minded purpose as a rugby nation.

The Akira fanboys will be very triggered by this statement

@crazy-horse said in All Blacks 2022:

We are trying to play too fast and we don't have the skills to consistently pull it off.

Maybe it isn't a lack of skills, per se, but not being able to perform/use those skills under pressure?

Biggest drop-off for me in the last 5 years has been lack of clear thnking under pressure.

@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:

Areas of weakness were identified, and new players were built. Is there any evidence of that happening since 2016?

Reiko at 13 seems an ongoing project. Like to see him breakthrough in that position this year

@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:

@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:

Areas of weakness were identified, and new players were built. Is there any evidence of that happening since 2016?

Reiko at 13 seems an ongoing project. Like to see him breakthrough in that position this year

I can see why they want it. A point of difference in the midfield (his speed) could be the break that unlocks a tight game. He does need to improve his passing (mainly his choice of when to pass and when not to).

@gt12 said in All Blacks 2022:

@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:

@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:

Areas of weakness were identified, and new players were built. Is there any evidence of that happening since 2016?

Reiko at 13 seems an ongoing project. Like to see him breakthrough in that position this year

I can see why they want it. A point of difference in the midfield (his speed) could be the break that unlocks a tight game. He does need to improve his passing (mainly his choice of when to pass and when not to).

Yep, work to do there. But I thought his defence at 13 improved a lot as the season went on and he started to get vocal in midfield too.

Coaching staff have handled him and his confidence well

@gt12 said in All Blacks 2022:

@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:

@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:

Areas of weakness were identified, and new players were built. Is there any evidence of that happening since 2016?

Reiko at 13 seems an ongoing project. Like to see him breakthrough in that position this year

I can see why they want it. A point of difference in the midfield (his speed) could be the break that unlocks a tight game. He does need to improve his passing (mainly his choice of when to pass and when not to).

Yup, the only reason why he hasn't spent more time there though, is because he's so much quicker and better than everyone else on the wing!

@bones said in All Blacks 2022:

@gt12 said in All Blacks 2022:

@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:

@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:

Areas of weakness were identified, and new players were built. Is there any evidence of that happening since 2016?

Reiko at 13 seems an ongoing project. Like to see him breakthrough in that position this year

I can see why they want it. A point of difference in the midfield (his speed) could be the break that unlocks a tight game. He does need to improve his passing (mainly his choice of when to pass and when not to).

Yup, the only reason why he hasn't spent more time there though, is because he's so much quicker and better than everyone else on the wing!

You would assume he wants to play at 13, but the fact he can walk into the starting XV on the wing must be doing his confidence no harm at all.

@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:

Biggest drop-off for me in the last 5 years has been lack of clear thnking under pressure.

Totally agree... also the forwards are not giving the backs good platforms to attack from, that all starts with the tight-five.

@gt12 said in All Blacks 2022:

@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:

@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:

Areas of weakness were identified, and new players were built. Is there any evidence of that happening since 2016?

Reiko at 13 seems an ongoing project. Like to see him breakthrough in that position this year

I can see why they want it. A point of difference in the midfield (his speed) could be the break that unlocks a tight game. He does need to improve his passing (mainly his choice of when to pass and when not to).

It's not very often he's going to be able to use his speed in a very congested area like the midfield, especially against the better teams... he'll have more chances to use his outstanding pace on the wing, also looks more comfortable playing there.

@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:

my main takeaway from that article is

jesus NZ A would suck right now.

The problem is not just their age, it's how they play. Who in our entire tight 5 can sit a guy on his ass in a tackle, or run through him, at test level? I would pretty much say the probably #3 hooker can fucking run, and Ofa can hit (but gets far too many wrong). That's it.

you can extend that to the whole pack. Cane can hit. Not many others can. And not many can run over a bloke (at test level, not Super Rugby, don't fucking start). We have depowered our rugby to play this high tempo skill stuff.

Problem being our skills aren't there, and you don't get to play tempo just because you want to.

At least the last time this happened, Henry came in an took immediate steps. We haven't even started rectifying it. Because we appear to have lost out single-minded purpose as a rugby nation.

This is it in a nutshell.
Now, just maybe our coaches realise this and are trying to find a way to play with the cattle we have?
Probably not but it is a possibility. If they can't find the forwards to play like that AND do the other skills necessary at test level then the issues lie either with selection or skills training.
I think we lost a lot when Mick Byrne left. He may have started as a kicking and handling skills coach but he was a great at analysing and coaching techniques.

Anyone who has ever played the game at some level will remember a coach telling them that the biggest muscles in their body are their legs and the importance of leg drive in contact. Why don't we see that at the top? Is it a fear of being isolated at the breakdown that is making our coaches tell players to take the tackle and recycle?
The curiosity last year was seeing the type of player we need (Taukei'aho) get initially left out and the selectors not promoting him until injury forced them too

seems to me that want Reiko in the midfield because we're struggling to get the ball to the wing against the rush and they want a weapon to get their hands on the ball earlier....but then we're not actually doing anything else to give him the chance to break the line. I can imagine it would work with someone like SBW at 12 (or obviously nonu), someone that could draw a couple of tacklers and get a pass away...but in reality we saw in the end of year tour the ball just get shovelled into midfield and every one just wait for whoever was there to do something

@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:

@gt12 said in All Blacks 2022:

@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:

@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:

Areas of weakness were identified, and new players were built. Is there any evidence of that happening since 2016?

Reiko at 13 seems an ongoing project. Like to see him breakthrough in that position this year

I can see why they want it. A point of difference in the midfield (his speed) could be the break that unlocks a tight game. He does need to improve his passing (mainly his choice of when to pass and when not to).

It's not very often he's going to be able to use his speed in a very congested area like the midfield, especially against the better teams... he'll have more chances to use his outstanding pace on the wing, also looks more comfortable playing there.

Only needs one chance in a tight game, but this is why they are doing it, looking for him to use his speed in mismatches on turnover ball (and with luck if we improve our offense, off set plays).

You guys have watched rugby recently haven't you?

The only time midfielders line up 'in position' these days is at set piece and even then, there are many variations.
Sure they still have a key role of creating space through straightening attacks and bending lines but after first phase you will more likely find them split and supporting either flank.

@gt12 thats something I like about Reece, he goes looking for work pops up all over the place and uses his pace to exploit mis-matches.

Wingers dont need to stay on the wing, but I guess thats one of the drawbacks for players like Reiko on the wing, is often if they arent involved enough they tend to be under-utilised, so in Reikos case, if he is on the wing he needs to make sure he is looking for work.

But can certainly see the positives of him in the centres.

@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:

The curiosity last year was seeing the type of player we need (Taukei'aho) get initially left out and the selectors not promoting him until injury forced them too

Hit the nail on the head

@tim wouldn't mind seeing a shake-up in that backline. For me R Ioane isn't the answer to centre so I would actually move him back to 11.

Something like this would do nicely.

9. A Smith 10. B Barrett 11. R Ioane 12. T Umaga-Jensen 13. A Leinert-Brown 14. W Jordan 15. J Barrett Reserve backs: 21. B Weber 22. R Mo'unga 23. P Umaga-Jensen / D Havili / Q Tupaea

@canes4life Yeah, it really is about getting that midfield right.