@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
We have depowered our rugby to play this high tempo skill stuff.
Problem being our skills aren't there, and you don't get to play tempo just because you want to.
I started typing something out yesterday along the same lines then deleted it because I couldn't be bothered. We are trying to play too fast and we don't have the skills to consistently pull it off.
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2022:
@mariner4life The good news is our new coach identified this problem prior to being appointed.
remember when we didn't have a hooker so we went and built Dane Coles?
Dane Coles was a very ordinary player even at Super level that someone saw something in. He became a massive point of difference in one of the greatest teams of all time. That didn't happen by accident.
Areas of weakness were identified, and new players were built. Is there any evidence of that happening since 2016?
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2022:
@mariner4life The good news is our new coach identified this problem prior to being appointed.
remember when we didn't have a hooker so we went and built Dane Coles?
Dane Coles was a very ordinary player even at Super level that someone saw something in. He became a massive point of difference in one of the greatest teams of all time. That didn't happen by accident.
Areas of weakness were identified, and new players were built. Is there any evidence of that happening since 2016?
Lack of distribution on the wing, and bridge
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2022:
@mariner4life The good news is our new coach identified this problem prior to being appointed.
remember when we didn't have a hooker so we went and built Dane Coles?
Dane Coles was a very ordinary player even at Super level that someone saw something in. He became a massive point of difference in one of the greatest teams of all time. That didn't happen by accident.
Areas of weakness were identified, and new players were built. Is there any evidence of that happening since 2016?
Coles was never a very ordinary player - has always had excellent ball skills & a lot of pace, also good in the scrum... he use to have a couple of weaknesses though, for a fair while his lineout throwing was pretty poor & he use to lack discipline giving away too many silly penalties, once he got those things right he become an excellent all-round hooker.
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2022:
@mariner4life The good news is our new coach identified this problem prior to being appointed.
remember when we didn't have a hooker so we went and built Dane Coles?
Dane Coles was a very ordinary player even at Super level that someone saw something in. He became a massive point of difference in one of the greatest teams of all time. That didn't happen by accident.
Areas of weakness were identified, and new players were built. Is there any evidence of that happening since 2016?
Coles was never a very ordinary player - has always had excellent ball skills & a lot of pace, also good in the scrum... he use to have a couple of weaknesses though, for a fair while his lineout throwing was pretty poor & he use to lack discipline giving away too many silly penalties, once he got those things right he become an excellent all-round hooker.
No he was too small, and coaches got him to bulk up, and gave him the time to get used to carrying the weight. They accepted he would have a worse year, but we're happy to play the long game. It was all from ABs coaches
@machpants said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2022:
@mariner4life The good news is our new coach identified this problem prior to being appointed.
remember when we didn't have a hooker so we went and built Dane Coles?
Dane Coles was a very ordinary player even at Super level that someone saw something in. He became a massive point of difference in one of the greatest teams of all time. That didn't happen by accident.
Areas of weakness were identified, and new players were built. Is there any evidence of that happening since 2016?
Coles was never a very ordinary player - has always had excellent ball skills & a lot of pace, also good in the scrum... he use to have a couple of weaknesses though, for a fair while his lineout throwing was pretty poor & he use to lack discipline giving away too many silly penalties, once he got those things right he become an excellent all-round hooker.
No he was too small, and coaches got him to bulk up, and gave him the time to get used to carrying the weight. They accepted he would have a worse year, but we're happy to play the long game. It was all from ABs coaches
Never thought he was too small before he started playing for the ABs, sure he did bulk up a bit, as a lot of players do throughout their careers... he couldn't have added too much weight though to his frame as he's always had the pace of a back, even though 35 now the bloke still shows how much speed he has off the mark.
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@machpants said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2022:
@mariner4life The good news is our new coach identified this problem prior to being appointed.
remember when we didn't have a hooker so we went and built Dane Coles?
Dane Coles was a very ordinary player even at Super level that someone saw something in. He became a massive point of difference in one of the greatest teams of all time. That didn't happen by accident.
Areas of weakness were identified, and new players were built. Is there any evidence of that happening since 2016?
Coles was never a very ordinary player - has always had excellent ball skills & a lot of pace, also good in the scrum... he use to have a couple of weaknesses though, for a fair while his lineout throwing was pretty poor & he use to lack discipline giving away too many silly penalties, once he got those things right he become an excellent all-round hooker.
No he was too small, and coaches got him to bulk up, and gave him the time to get used to carrying the weight. They accepted he would have a worse year, but we're happy to play the long game. It was all from ABs coaches
Never thought he was too small before he started playing for the ABs, sure he did bulk up a bit, as a lot of players do throughout their careers... he couldn't have added too much weight though to his frame as he's always had the pace of a back, even though 35 now the bloke still shows how much speed he has off the mark.
He was too small, it was all up front at the time. ABs coaches and Coles talked about his off season increase. It was planned, and executed, to allow a specific gap too be covered in ABs. And they were happy to take the short term pain for long term gain
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
my main takeaway from that article is
jesus NZ A would suck right now.
The problem is not just their age, it's how they play. Who in our entire tight 5 can sit a guy on his ass in a tackle, or run through him, at test level? I would pretty much say the probably #3 hooker can fucking run, and Ofa can hit (but gets far too many wrong). That's it.
you can extend that to the whole pack. Cane can hit. Not many others can. And not many can run over a bloke (at test level, not Super Rugby, don't fucking start). We have depowered our rugby to play this high tempo skill stuff.
Problem being our skills aren't there, and you don't get to play tempo just because you want to.
At least the last time this happened, Henry came in an took immediate steps. We haven't even started rectifying it. Because we appear to have lost out single-minded purpose as a rugby nation.
The Akira fanboys will be very triggered by this statement
@crazy-horse said in All Blacks 2022:
We are trying to play too fast and we don't have the skills to consistently pull it off.
Maybe it isn't a lack of skills, per se, but not being able to perform/use those skills under pressure?
Biggest drop-off for me in the last 5 years has been lack of clear thnking under pressure.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
Areas of weakness were identified, and new players were built. Is there any evidence of that happening since 2016?
Reiko at 13 seems an ongoing project. Like to see him breakthrough in that position this year
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
Areas of weakness were identified, and new players were built. Is there any evidence of that happening since 2016?
Reiko at 13 seems an ongoing project. Like to see him breakthrough in that position this year
I can see why they want it. A point of difference in the midfield (his speed) could be the break that unlocks a tight game. He does need to improve his passing (mainly his choice of when to pass and when not to).
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2022:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
Areas of weakness were identified, and new players were built. Is there any evidence of that happening since 2016?
Reiko at 13 seems an ongoing project. Like to see him breakthrough in that position this year
I can see why they want it. A point of difference in the midfield (his speed) could be the break that unlocks a tight game. He does need to improve his passing (mainly his choice of when to pass and when not to).
Yep, work to do there. But I thought his defence at 13 improved a lot as the season went on and he started to get vocal in midfield too.
Coaching staff have handled him and his confidence well
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2022:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
Areas of weakness were identified, and new players were built. Is there any evidence of that happening since 2016?
Reiko at 13 seems an ongoing project. Like to see him breakthrough in that position this year
I can see why they want it. A point of difference in the midfield (his speed) could be the break that unlocks a tight game. He does need to improve his passing (mainly his choice of when to pass and when not to).
Yup, the only reason why he hasn't spent more time there though, is because he's so much quicker and better than everyone else on the wing!
@bones said in All Blacks 2022:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2022:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
Areas of weakness were identified, and new players were built. Is there any evidence of that happening since 2016?
Reiko at 13 seems an ongoing project. Like to see him breakthrough in that position this year
I can see why they want it. A point of difference in the midfield (his speed) could be the break that unlocks a tight game. He does need to improve his passing (mainly his choice of when to pass and when not to).
Yup, the only reason why he hasn't spent more time there though, is because he's so much quicker and better than everyone else on the wing!
You would assume he wants to play at 13, but the fact he can walk into the starting XV on the wing must be doing his confidence no harm at all.
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
Biggest drop-off for me in the last 5 years has been lack of clear thnking under pressure.
Totally agree... also the forwards are not giving the backs good platforms to attack from, that all starts with the tight-five.
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2022:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
Areas of weakness were identified, and new players were built. Is there any evidence of that happening since 2016?
Reiko at 13 seems an ongoing project. Like to see him breakthrough in that position this year
I can see why they want it. A point of difference in the midfield (his speed) could be the break that unlocks a tight game. He does need to improve his passing (mainly his choice of when to pass and when not to).
It's not very often he's going to be able to use his speed in a very congested area like the midfield, especially against the better teams... he'll have more chances to use his outstanding pace on the wing, also looks more comfortable playing there.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
my main takeaway from that article is
jesus NZ A would suck right now.
The problem is not just their age, it's how they play. Who in our entire tight 5 can sit a guy on his ass in a tackle, or run through him, at test level? I would pretty much say the probably #3 hooker can fucking run, and Ofa can hit (but gets far too many wrong). That's it.
you can extend that to the whole pack. Cane can hit. Not many others can. And not many can run over a bloke (at test level, not Super Rugby, don't fucking start). We have depowered our rugby to play this high tempo skill stuff.
Problem being our skills aren't there, and you don't get to play tempo just because you want to.
At least the last time this happened, Henry came in an took immediate steps. We haven't even started rectifying it. Because we appear to have lost out single-minded purpose as a rugby nation.
This is it in a nutshell.
Now, just maybe our coaches realise this and are trying to find a way to play with the cattle we have?
Probably not but it is a possibility. If they can't find the forwards to play like that AND do the other skills necessary at test level then the issues lie either with selection or skills training.
I think we lost a lot when Mick Byrne left. He may have started as a kicking and handling skills coach but he was a great at analysing and coaching techniques.
Anyone who has ever played the game at some level will remember a coach telling them that the biggest muscles in their body are their legs and the importance of leg drive in contact. Why don't we see that at the top? Is it a fear of being isolated at the breakdown that is making our coaches tell players to take the tackle and recycle?
The curiosity last year was seeing the type of player we need (Taukei'aho) get initially left out and the selectors not promoting him until injury forced them too
seems to me that want Reiko in the midfield because we're struggling to get the ball to the wing against the rush and they want a weapon to get their hands on the ball earlier....but then we're not actually doing anything else to give him the chance to break the line. I can imagine it would work with someone like SBW at 12 (or obviously nonu), someone that could draw a couple of tacklers and get a pass away...but in reality we saw in the end of year tour the ball just get shovelled into midfield and every one just wait for whoever was there to do something
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2022:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
Areas of weakness were identified, and new players were built. Is there any evidence of that happening since 2016?
Reiko at 13 seems an ongoing project. Like to see him breakthrough in that position this year
I can see why they want it. A point of difference in the midfield (his speed) could be the break that unlocks a tight game. He does need to improve his passing (mainly his choice of when to pass and when not to).
It's not very often he's going to be able to use his speed in a very congested area like the midfield, especially against the better teams... he'll have more chances to use his outstanding pace on the wing, also looks more comfortable playing there.
Only needs one chance in a tight game, but this is why they are doing it, looking for him to use his speed in mismatches on turnover ball (and with luck if we improve our offense, off set plays).
You guys have watched rugby recently haven't you?
The only time midfielders line up 'in position' these days is at set piece and even then, there are many variations.
Sure they still have a key role of creating space through straightening attacks and bending lines but after first phase you will more likely find them split and supporting either flank.
@gt12 thats something I like about Reece, he goes looking for work pops up all over the place and uses his pace to exploit mis-matches.
Wingers dont need to stay on the wing, but I guess thats one of the drawbacks for players like Reiko on the wing, is often if they arent involved enough they tend to be under-utilised, so in Reikos case, if he is on the wing he needs to make sure he is looking for work.
But can certainly see the positives of him in the centres.
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
The curiosity last year was seeing the type of player we need (Taukei'aho) get initially left out and the selectors not promoting him until injury forced them too
Hit the nail on the head
@tim wouldn't mind seeing a shake-up in that backline. For me R Ioane isn't the answer to centre so I would actually move him back to 11.
Something like this would do nicely.
9. A Smith 10. B Barrett 11. R Ioane 12. T Umaga-Jensen 13. A Leinert-Brown 14. W Jordan 15. J Barrett Reserve backs: 21. B Weber 22. R Mo'unga 23. P Umaga-Jensen / D Havili / Q Tupaea
@canes4life Yeah, it really is about getting that midfield right.
@tim I think in TUJ you have the size, grunt and skill-set required to be a international 12, then having ALB outside him gives you a sound defender and distributor which you need in that combination.
I would then have PUJ coming on late in the game who has been outstanding coming on for the Canes at either 12/13 even though we all know he should be starting.
@tim reckon the comments on Goodhue-ALB were a bit harsh.
Goodhue is more in the traditional distributing centre mould and probably the best defender, while ALB can be a weapon with his accelaration.
Problem is, we have chopped and changed so often, it affects whoever plays there, and as such, affects the ball going further too.
Just hope Fozzie goes in with his eyes open this year, and loyalty is only rewarded where justified.
@taniwharugby Goodhue and ALB are probably NZ's best centres, however I don't think either of them suit playing 12 which is where the AB coaches have gone wrong in the past.
The All Black's really need to settle on their top centre pairing because we are running out of tests before the WC.
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2022:
@gt12 thats something I like about Reece, he goes looking for work pops up all over the place and uses his pace to exploit mis-matches.
Wingers dont need to stay on the wing, but I guess thats one of the drawbacks for players like Reiko on the wing, is often if they arent involved enough they tend to be under-utilised, so in Reikos case, if he is on the wing he needs to make sure he is looking for work.
But can certainly see the positives of him in the centres.
that is good but wingers also need to be aware they may be needed back on the position, nothing more annoying than stretching things one way and then you go to unleash the other and find a tight forward on the end of the line
@kiwiwomble in Reece's case, I think he has a pretty good awareness of things and reads play pretty well and is usually in the right place, assisted by his workrate
@canes4life said in All Blacks 2022:
@taniwharugby Goodhue and ALB are probably NZ's best centres, however I don't think either of them suit playing 12 which is where the AB coaches have gone wrong in the past.
The All Black's really need to settle on their top centre pairing because we are running out of tests before the WC.
I think there are 19
O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.
Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.
Finding the good midfield combination is a worry but the biggest one, in my opinion, is to find a competitive front five. In this respect, the injury to P.P. Parkinson has been a real blow. He may not be the best lock when the game is played at pace because of his "concrete feet", but his power and massive frame would be of great value against teams like SA, England, Ireland and France. Will he be back to fitness for the EOYT ? This would be a good occasion to test him against muscular and heavy forwards.
@cgrant said in All Blacks 2022:
power and massive frame
Well yeah...if it was noticeable. He certainly doesn't play like a big man, apart from the very occasional slow motion wade through 3-4 tacklers. I think MSR and even Dickson would be ahead of him now.
@bones said in All Blacks 2022:
@cgrant said in All Blacks 2022:
power and massive frame
Well yeah...if it was noticeable. He certainly doesn't play like a big man, apart from the very occasional slow motion wade through 3-4 tacklers. I think MSR and even Dickson would be ahead of him now.
Yes, it's what you do with your frame that counts.
@tim said in All Blacks 2022:
O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.
Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.
It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.
@nzbloke But what is the balance around player welfare? Posters all want harder hits bigger clean outs and aggressive running and playing same best 23 each week. Over extended super season and test season how will players take the extra pounding? Maybe super and AB coaches are being guided a bit about working their key squad members through workload as best they can.
@arhs said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke But what is the balance around player welfare? Posters all want harder hits bigger clean outs and aggressive running and playing same best 23 each week. Over extended super season and test season how will players take the extra pounding? Maybe super and AB coaches are being guided a bit about working their key squad members through workload as best they can.
Guided by the NH?
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@tim said in All Blacks 2022:
O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.
Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.
It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.
I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.
@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.
