So what did we learn from Bled2?

@Victor-Meldrew said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Tim said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@mariner4life He's had four blinders in the last five tests. Yet dickheads will just assume that because we aren't making spectacular wide moves, while scoring 40 points, it must because we have a defective centre. Moronic.

I think he's the best option at 13 and has come on in spades, but has some work-on's - e. g. he needs to give his support players/wingers more space. There have been times when he's made a blistering break but edged towards the touchline which cramps his attack options.

This is very true but he has come on leaps and bounds in the relatively short time he has been a test match centre. If he continues on his current trajectory, he could be an absolute phenomenon at the RWC next year. Why give up that possibility, and the significant time that has been invested in his development to date, just because there remain a few rough edges

@SBW1 These results yet again prove that the problem we have had for a very long period of time has been organization, leadership and coaching. We have good players
If Razor was at the helm another dimension would reveal itself, 100%

I think if we are going to persist with both Clarke and Ioane in the starting backline them we need to find a few inventive ways to better use them because I don’t think either of them are natural ball players. I think part of our fluency issues is because we want the ball in their hands to run but more often than not our attack is breaking down because they are either unwilling passers or they’re not confident doing it. To me it’s both a mental and skill thing.

This is not a criticism but if we are wanting to improve our efficiency we are going to have see a rapid improvement quickly or a change needs to occur.

Awesome knowing we have a stable scrum. Unreal . A decent scrum was becoming a hazy memory

Has Sami become number 1 hooker passing Fitz and Coles in the GOAT AB team of recent living memory?
Peak Coles was my number 1 but it's getting close

@BerniesCorner said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

Has Sami become number 1 hooker passing Fitz and Coles in the GOAT AB team of recent living memory?
Peak Coles was my number 1 but it's getting close

I know he’s playing well, but it’s pretty early days. He hasn’t even reached Mealamu level let alone the lofty heights of Fitzy.

So what did we learn from Bled2?

That the two camps will never meet halfway on Akira Ioane.

@ACT-Crusader Yet peak Coles redefined the position especially on the wing!

@junior said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Victor-Meldrew said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Tim said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@mariner4life He's had four blinders in the last five tests. Yet dickheads will just assume that because we aren't making spectacular wide moves, while scoring 40 points, it must because we have a defective centre. Moronic.

I think he's the best option at 13 and has come on in spades, but has some work-on's - e. g. he needs to give his support players/wingers more space. There have been times when he's made a blistering break but edged towards the touchline which cramps his attack options.

This is very true but he has come on leaps and bounds in the relatively short time he has been a test match centre. If he continues on his current trajectory, he could be an absolute phenomenon at the RWC next year. Why give up that possibility, and the significant time that has been invested in his development to date, just because there remain a few rough edges

I liked the way he combined with a new centre yesterday from what little I saw. If he can keep his support runners with him and learn to hold the ball better, a la Conrad, rather than swap it from hand-hand, he'll be almost there.

That may sound like basic stuff, but his other play inc. his scramble defence, makes up for it IMHO.

I think the obvious thing to me is we have 3 test level fullbacks in JB, BB and WJ and really there is not that much between them.

At 12 we have no options as good as those three fullbacks. So JB to 12 has to be a no brainer as you still have two good options at 15. If we use JB at 15 we have no really good options at 12. Simples.

@SBW1 is Goodhue returning.? We have been waiting for years and although obviously one of Fozzies faves he really needs to earn his spot back. Goodhue is the new Kahui but not as good.

@TheMojoman said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

• Jordie is our best 12. He’s the missing piece at 12. Helps Richie with a running options and holds the defence creating more space for Rieko. Run, kick pass threat who can hit hard on defence. That said Fozzie will prob play him on wing now.

• We now have enormous depth in the front row to the point Ta’avao can’t even get a look in.

• Papali’i makes Cane redundant especially when Whitelock, Savea and Smith are available as captains.

• Akira Ioane needs to be persevered at 6. He showed he can play tight and defend well when the physicality stakes were high. Basically can do what Frizell, Barrett can do with much more upside.

• BB is the best option at FB giving us a triple pivot capability. That means Jordan is at 14. He’d make a great test FB but in the current setup he’s a 14.

They want Jordan at 14 to play a roving role and go looking for the ball , not be stuck out on the wing , it looks like to me he is starting to get the hang of that , starting to bob up more in the middle of the field ,

Hopefully just because he wears 14 on his back it doesn’t matter , we can still utilise all the good stuff that he brings

@kiwiinmelb doesn't hurt that Reece came on and made an immediate impact. It was great to see Jordan playing well and looking more confident. But having all 3 of our main wing options playing well adds that extra spice.

@ACT-Crusader said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

I think if we are going to persist with both Clarke and Ioane in the starting backline them we need to find a few inventive ways to better use them because I don’t think either of them are natural ball players. I think part of our fluency issues is because we want the ball in their hands to run but more often than not our attack is breaking down because they are either unwilling passers or they’re not confident doing it. To me it’s both a mental and skill thing.

This is not a criticism but if we are wanting to improve our efficiency we are going to have see a rapid improvement quickly or a change needs to occur.

I don't agree. With Mo'unga, Jordie and Beauden we have ample play makers. What we need to compliment them is people that are genuine threats with ball in hand, otherwise we'll find it hard to break down organised defenses. I think the balance of the backline we ran out was perfect, the biggest question mark was how Mo'unga and Beauden would go together, and it's clear they've done a lot of work there as this time around they really complimented each other.

I really, really hope we give this backline as much gametime as possible leading up to the RWC. It's so important that they are allowed to grow as a unit over a number of tests. I think other teams would be extremely weary of having to defend multiple play makers with Rieko, Clarke and Jordan running off them.

@broughie said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@SBW1 is Goodhue returning.? We have been waiting for years and although obviously one of Fozzies faves he really needs to earn his spot back. Goodhue is the new Kahui but not as good.

Kahui was so good. Very unlucky with injuries and Smith and Nonu having a mortgage on the midfield spots. Could really smash guys over with the best of them.

@chimoaus said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

I think the obvious thing to me is we have 3 test level fullbacks in JB, BB and WJ and really there is not that much between them.

At 12 we have no options as good as those three fullbacks. So JB to 12 has to be a no brainer as you still have two good options at 15. If we use JB at 15 we have no really good options at 12. Simples.

We've also got Perofeta and DMac as options at fullback.

But, none of these guys are like Jordie who is a great big bastard who commands the air - and is the closest thing we've had to Don Clarke since Don Clarke. Our defensive system has the wings pushing up and in - and leaving the opposition wings for the second line - i.e. Jordie to smash, which he does very well. I don't trust any of the other four to play that role effectively, so are we risking it, or chucking our whole defensive system out (OK cue the McLeod jokes, but I doubt we've got 10 tests before RWC)?

On the plus side, we've got ALB due back very shortly (and potentially Goodhue next year) as more powerful second five options than Havili.

Don't get me wrong - I was on the Jordie to 12 bandwagon a couple of years ago, maybe even at the start of this season - but it's late in the piece to be making a sea-change.

@No-Quarter said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

I don't agree. With Mo'unga, Jordie and Beauden we have ample play makers. What we need to compliment them is

Less critical fans?

With JB at 12 it was one of the few times our backline didn't look like shit this season. Certainly looked its best. It's worth a crack

@Chris-B said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@No-Quarter said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

I don't agree. With Mo'unga, Jordie and Beauden we have ample play makers. What we need to compliment them is

Less critical fans?

Hey I've been very measured in my analysis of Mo'unga, there were a couple of errors he made I could have gone to town on him over

@Chris-B I'm very sympathetic to your views on Jordie at the back, I was of the same view about moving him to 12, but I think he can be more influential there for the ABs where we can better utilise his strength with ball in hand and hard hitting defense. That said, if Beauden got injured that'd throw a big spanner in the works.

Jordie needs to be used at 12 on the EOYT, even just to see how effective he is against NH opposition. He's not going to have the luxury of running at Foley every test.

I think they should use Jordie at 12 against the big physical teams and persist with Havili against weaker opponents, if only to have match fit cover if Jordie goes down injured or has a Barrett Brain fart and gets a red card. We need more than one 12 and at the moment, Havili is the best back-up. Never put all your money on one player.

For the same reason, they should give Reece some starts on the wing and slot Jordan in at fullback (maybe in the second half) in some games.

@No-Quarter said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

That said, if Beauden got injured that'd throw a big spanner in the works.

The AB fullback role seems very similar to the Blues fullback role now. Perofeta would be a good fit for that pattern.

But we don't even know if he's capable of playing Test rugby yet

The AB's constantly being under pressure and having no 'easier' Tests has stalled any depth building

@Stargazer said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

I think they should use Jordie at 12 against the big physical teams and persist with Havili against weaker opponents, if only to have match fit cover if Jordie goes down injured or has a Barrett Brain fart and gets a red card. We need more than one 12 and at the moment, Havili is the best back-up. Never put all your money on one player.

For the same reason, they should give Reece some starts on the wing and slot Jordan in at fullback (maybe in the second half) in some games.

Has Jordie ever gotten a red card at test level? Or even at super level? Or are you mixing him up with a hot headed Crusader?

I get what you're saying though, but if we're gonna have a chance at this RWC we need to build some very solid combinations so that when push comes to shove we can rely on those combinations to get us through. We don't have much time to do that now. Constantly chopping and changing is not a luxary we have anymore, we'll just put ourselves under pressure and it leads to disjointed performances.

Jordie is and always has been a natural fit at 12. At 15 he is always going to be a little bit slow and lacks a bit of evasiveness to be a long term keeper. At some point he'll probably cop a card for leading with elbows and forearms hitting it up, but hey.
Rieko Ioane frequently does some pretty amazing stuff - particularly in defence - but blows about one try per game. And in close games we don't get a whole lot of opportunities to blow. Clarke has the same problem: can't find support, can't keep movements going. Of course he's a bit of a defensive liability at present too, so that's not great. Both those guys in one backline at the moment means you're going to leave points out there.
So if/when ALB comes back, then what? Is Rieko a better centre than him?

@Duluth said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@No-Quarter said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

That said, if Beauden got injured that'd throw a big spanner in the works.

The AB fullback role seems very similar to the Blues fullback role now. Perofeta would be a good fit for that pattern.

But we don't even know if he's capable of playing Test rugby yet

The AB's constantly being under pressure and having no 'easier' Tests has stalled any depth building

Yeah, that's been a real problem this year. We've also not had any tests against tier 2 nations to give people time in the black jumper, going straight into tests against a settled Irish team was tough. Perofeta was outstanding in SR and hadn't been sighted since which is a problem.

With 40 tests under his belt (a number of these at fullback) I'd think DMac has the edge on Perofeta when it comes to fullback options after Beaudy (if they wanted to keep Jordie at 12).

Thinking about cards for Jordie, did he get a red when he caught the ball with his knees up that time? That's all I can remember.

@reprobate said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

So if/when ALB comes back, then what? Is Rieko a better centre than him?

Yes.

Long answer: yes - brings a point of difference. ALB was amazing, but needs to re-establish himself after hte injuries. He's the long term guy, it's becoming the Ardie at 7 argument again; whatever you think of him as an 8, that's his position, that's where he's playing. 7 cover at best.

@No-Quarter said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

Thinking about cards for Jordie, did he get a red when he caught the ball with his knees up that time? That's all I can remember.

Yeah that sprung to mind too. Red or yellow I can't remember.

@No-Quarter Not that I know off, but Jordie been close in at least one test (about half the world screamed he should have got a red instead of a yellow in one test), was it last year or the year before? I think it was "a raised leg in a challenge for the ball in the air" incident.

Changing Jordie and Havili between tests, depending on the opponent and game plan, is not constantly chopping an changing. The combinations with Havili have already been formed. Jordie already seemed to slot in perfectly. The back-up needs game time. This can be off the bench, too. I think that 23 jersey will fit Havili well.

@No-Quarter A bit of devil's advocate, as well.

Right now, my maths says we don't win RWC2023 - we're a one-in-ten chance, so we may need to spin the bottle.

@Stargazer said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@No-Quarter Not that I know off, but Jordie been close in at least one test (about half the world screamed he should have got a red instead of a yellow in one test), was it last year or the year before? I think it was "a raised leg in a challenge for the ball in the air" incident.

Changing Jordie and Havili between tests, depending on the opponent and game plan, is not constantly chopping an changing. The combinations with Havili have already been formed. Jordie already seemed to slot in perfectly. The back-up needs game time. This can be off the bench, too. I think that 23 jersey will fit Havili well.

you are shameless. but it's not easy when you see your favourite player run right past like that.

That bench spot is ALB's when he comes back.

Have to say though, i can't say i thought JB would slot in that well first time up. It may have even been his best test ever. Remarkable.

It's not an exaggeration to say JB carved up in that game

@mariner4life said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Stargazer said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@No-Quarter Not that I know off, but Jordie been close in at least one test (about half the world screamed he should have got a red instead of a yellow in one test), was it last year or the year before? I think it was "a raised leg in a challenge for the ball in the air" incident.

Changing Jordie and Havili between tests, depending on the opponent and game plan, is not constantly chopping an changing. The combinations with Havili have already been formed. Jordie already seemed to slot in perfectly. The back-up needs game time. This can be off the bench, too. I think that 23 jersey will fit Havili well.

you are shameless. but it's not easy when you see your favourite player run right past like that.

That bench spot is ALB's when he comes back.

Have to say though, i can't say i thought JB would slot in that well first time up. It may have even been his best test ever. Remarkable.

I agree, it's his best Test that I can remember. Certainly the best performance by a 12 in over three years.

I also wonder if Dave Rennie and Wallabies took a big learning. I would think at some stage someone in ABs camp would of pointed to the Dave and the Wallabies camp we was robbed etc etc in the papers and prehaps wondered if they were going to try and prove it right. As a coach I would of made sure players were aware etc (have done similar stuff myself) , and why when I coached I would never hear an excuse for why we lost.

@Stargazer said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@No-Quarter Not that I know off, but Jordie been close in at least one test (about half the world screamed he should have got a red instead of a yellow in one test), was it last year or the year before? I think it was "a raised leg in a challenge for the ball in the air" incident.

Changing Jordie and Havili between tests, depending on the opponent and game plan, is not constantly chopping an changing. The combinations with Havili have already been formed. Jordie already seemed to slot in perfectly. The back-up needs game time. This can be off the bench, too. I think that 23 jersey will fit Havili well.

Are you Havili's agent?

@Dan54 said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

I also wonder if Dave Rennie and Wallabies took a big learning. I would think at some stage someone in ABs camp would of pointed to the Dave and the Wallabies camp we was robbed etc etc in the papers and prehaps wondered if they were going to try and prove it right. As a coach I would of made sure players were aware etc (have done similar stuff myself) , and why when I coached I would never hear an excuse for why we lost.

Agreed. Wallabies are generally more successful when they go with the 'ambush' tactic. 10 days of ref whinging and weird shit like Rennie calling out Rieko a week after for something he said on the field definitely backfired.

@ACT-Crusader said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

I think if we are going to persist with both Clarke and Ioane in the starting backline them we need to find a few inventive ways to better use them because I don’t think either of them are natural ball players. I think part of our fluency issues is because we want the ball in their hands to run but more often than not our attack is breaking down because they are either unwilling passers or they’re not confident doing it. To me it’s both a mental and skill thing.

This is not a criticism but if we are wanting to improve our efficiency we are going to have see a rapid improvement quickly or a change needs to occur.

I think with Mounga, Beaudy and Jordie in the same backline you've got ample playmakers. I think one of the reasons Mounga struggles at times to assert himself against good rush defences is lack of support. Hopefully now he'll have that in spades.

We need to accept Rieko is no Conrad Smith, just like Conrad Smith was no Rieko Ioane. Different strengths, weaknesses. Rieko will get better in terms of pass choices and positioning then putting his outsides into space but I'll take his searing pace and punch at Centre for the time being.

Clarke is even younger and inexperienced so continue to bring him along. He'll have another 6-8 tests under his belt by RWC so coming along nicely. His work in the air was superb, unexpected IMO.

@Chris-B said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@chimoaus said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

I think the obvious thing to me is we have 3 test level fullbacks in JB, BB and WJ and really there is not that much between them.

At 12 we have no options as good as those three fullbacks. So JB to 12 has to be a no brainer as you still have two good options at 15. If we use JB at 15 we have no really good options at 12. Simples.

We've also got Perofeta and DMac as options at fullback.

But, none of these guys are like Jordie who is a great big bastard who commands the air - and is the closest thing we've had to Don Clarke since Don Clarke. Our defensive system has the wings pushing up and in - and leaving the opposition wings for the second line - i.e. Jordie to smash, which he does very well. I don't trust any of the other four to play that role effectively, so are we risking it, or chucking our whole defensive system out (OK cue the McLeod jokes, but I doubt we've got 10 tests before RWC)?

On the plus side, we've got ALB due back very shortly (and potentially Goodhue next year) as more powerful second five options than Havili.

Don't get me wrong - I was on the Jordie to 12 bandwagon a couple of years ago, maybe even at the start of this season - but it's late in the piece to be making a sea-change.

I think it's an opportunity cost thing. Does the backline function better with JB at 12 and BB at 15 or JB at 15 and Havs at 12. For me the JB BB combo is much more attractive. We have nothing to lose by using the same backline on the EOYT. What we do know is the backline with Havs at 12 vs solid rush defence is a bit shit.