So what did we learn from Bled2?

@Machpants said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@taniwharugby said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

I think off that break RI could have passed to Will, Koribete may or may not have caught Will who in turn could have passed back to RI...don't think it was a bad non pass, but a could have passed.

I think guys like DP, HS, RTS,FF, TV and others have all been given far too little time out there to be making any kind of call on them.

Of that bunch, DP is the one I like most, potential captain, arguably the best 7 in super rugby, then got splinters most of the test campaign.

AI is an interesting one, physically he should be the best player on the park, but often isn't...he did some good stuff last night but still seems to drift in and out of games, think he has way more upside than Frizzell, but also see the value of the energiser bunny, Blackadder.

Was nice having a physical direct running 12, rather that a lightweight 12 and using like he is a heavier physical specimen! Havili has his skills, but doesn't demand attention from opposition as a bigger 12 will.

Was great to see the 2 old locks playing well, feeding off one another's energy, winding back the clock...can they hang on for another 12 months?

Still huge concerns with our ability to do the basics, I mean we had what, 30 mins in the last 2 weeks with a numerical advantage yetfailed to capitalise...and the other not so small elephant in the room, our defence.

We seem good on our line more often when no depth to worry about but is this.just good scramble, but outside this we are still so unstructured and ill disciplined (in being able to hold our line) often we are staggered, width is all over the show...

All told, I think more positives than negatives.

That was a blown try, I was high up above the halfway line, and Ioane not passing was top level hungus, appalling decision. Almost dead cert try blown.

I've learnt that the ABs shape and accuracy first half was terrible, really. And Ozzie played like the ninth ranked team in the world, see we were 17 up somehow. Looked pretty bad live

That's interesting, watching it on TV it looked like Korobeti was definitely going to smoke Jordan from behind as soon as the pass was made, so it seemed an OK option to hold on.

Later in the game a similar pass was made to Jordie on a breakout, and he got tackled from behind immediately.

@nostrildamus JB has got brilliant awareness and distribution skills

Just watched the game

As compared to the start of the season all I can say is thank you that we now have Lomax, De Groot, Sami and Newell.
JB at 12 is a massive bonus. Retallick is back. Paps is going well.
Whitelock needs to stay captain. Love the no frills common sense
Still missing Razor

@BerniesCorner said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@nostrildamus JB has got brilliant awareness and distribution skills

What I did see impressed me.

@BerniesCorner While the coaching setup is now much improved with the additions of Ryan and Schmidt, still think we may need something a little extra for the Northern tour whether that be a new defense coach, Wayne Smith's involvement or even assistance from someone like John Mitchell for our game against England. Really wish Razor could be brought into the environment or even be part of the World Cup setup.

@SBW1 said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@BerniesCorner While the coaching setup is now much improved with the additions of Ryan and Schmidt, still think we may need something a little extra for the Northern tour whether that be a new defense coach, Wayne Smith's involvement or even assistance from someone like John Mitchell for our game against England. Really wish Razor could be brought into the environment or even be part of the World Cup setup.

Fuck off, the players all know how to grip the ball properly.

@Paekakboyz said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@KiwiMurph biggest boot in the squad, tallest back and good under the high ball, great defender, decent pace, creates space and not afraid to have a crack. It's the first two that pin him as a 1st pick FB imo. But I want him at 12 personally and like that he can drop into the pocket if needed.

Just about jizzed myself with some of those awesome flat passes. RI's weaker passing game gets offset by jordie throwing skip passes

I agree with your first points but we need a Fullback who breaks the line. Teams need to be afraid to boot the ball down to us.

To me that’s Will Jordan. I love the idea of him getting the ball with time and space, picking a gap and then running at fatties. We will have teams on the back foot all day.

The upside of Jordie at 12 eclipses the downside of not having him at 15.

@Steve said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Paekakboyz said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@KiwiMurph biggest boot in the squad, tallest back and good under the high ball, great defender, decent pace, creates space and not afraid to have a crack. It's the first two that pin him as a 1st pick FB imo. But I want him at 12 personally and like that he can drop into the pocket if needed.

Just about jizzed myself with some of those awesome flat passes. RI's weaker passing game gets offset by jordie throwing skip passes

I agree with your first points but we need a Fullback who breaks the line. Teams need to be afraid to boot the ball down to us.

To me that’s Will Jordan. I love the idea of him getting the ball with time and space, picking a gap and then running at fatties. We will have teams on the back foot all day.

Teams won't be afraid to run at us with his current defence.

@Tim said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@BartMan Yet another excellent performance from Rieko Ioane, made huge metres, excellent decision making, rushed up on defence when needed, and got a turn over - he's not a centre! Don't you get tired of pushing premeditated takes? He was excellent, and I challenge anyone to name a better centre since 2015.

He’s is our best Centre by far, who else would we select there? Plus he’s getting better and better. Is he the finished product? Of course not but he will get better with more time in the saddle.

Even Foster isn’t stupid enough to move him back to wing.

• Jordie is our best 12. He’s the missing piece at 12. Helps Richie with a running options and holds the defence creating more space for Rieko. Run, kick pass threat who can hit hard on defence. That said Fozzie will prob play him on wing now.

• We now have enormous depth in the front row to the point Ta’avao can’t even get a look in.

• Papali’i makes Cane redundant especially when Whitelock, Savea and Smith are available as captains.

• Akira Ioane needs to be persevered at 6. He showed he can play tight and defend well when the physicality stakes were high. Basically can do what Frizell, Barrett can do with much more upside.

• BB is the best option at FB giving us a triple pivot capability. That means Jordan is at 14. He’d make a great test FB but in the current setup he’s a 14.

@TheMojoman said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

• Jordie is our best 12. He’s the missing piece at 12. Helps Richie with a running options and holds the defence creating more space for Rieko. Run, kick pass threat who can hit hard on defence. That said Fozzie will prob play him on wing now.

• We now have enormous depth in the front row to the point Ta’avao can’t even get a look in.

• Papali’i makes Cane redundant especially when Whitelock, Savea and Smith are available as captains.

• Akira Ioane needs to be persevered at 6. He showed he can play tight and defend well when the physicality stakes were high. Basically can do what Frizell, Barrett can do with much more upside.

• BB is the best option at FB giving us a triple pivot capability. That means Jordan is at 14. He’d make a great test FB but in the current setup he’s a 14.

agree with this

@Nepia Heard a rumour on another forum that RTS has been tabled an offer from the Roosters for the latter half of 2023. Wonder if he gets on EOYT with ALB and Goodhue returning.

@Tim said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@BartMan Yet another excellent performance from Rieko Ioane, made huge metres, excellent decision making, rushed up on defence when needed, and got a turn over - he's not a centre! Don't you get tired of pushing premeditated takes? He was excellent, and I challenge anyone to name a better centre since 2015.

Even if he wasn't a centre's arsehole, the fact is that everyone else who could possible play there instead is injured - he's easily the best we have fit and available and is performing well.

@Victor-Meldrew said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Tim said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@mariner4life He's had four blinders in the last five tests. Yet dickheads will just assume that because we aren't making spectacular wide moves, while scoring 40 points, it must because we have a defective centre. Moronic.

I think he's the best option at 13 and has come on in spades, but has some work-on's - e. g. he needs to give his support players/wingers more space. There have been times when he's made a blistering break but edged towards the touchline which cramps his attack options.

This is very true but he has come on leaps and bounds in the relatively short time he has been a test match centre. If he continues on his current trajectory, he could be an absolute phenomenon at the RWC next year. Why give up that possibility, and the significant time that has been invested in his development to date, just because there remain a few rough edges

@SBW1 These results yet again prove that the problem we have had for a very long period of time has been organization, leadership and coaching. We have good players
If Razor was at the helm another dimension would reveal itself, 100%

I think if we are going to persist with both Clarke and Ioane in the starting backline them we need to find a few inventive ways to better use them because I don’t think either of them are natural ball players. I think part of our fluency issues is because we want the ball in their hands to run but more often than not our attack is breaking down because they are either unwilling passers or they’re not confident doing it. To me it’s both a mental and skill thing.

This is not a criticism but if we are wanting to improve our efficiency we are going to have see a rapid improvement quickly or a change needs to occur.

Awesome knowing we have a stable scrum. Unreal . A decent scrum was becoming a hazy memory

Has Sami become number 1 hooker passing Fitz and Coles in the GOAT AB team of recent living memory?
Peak Coles was my number 1 but it's getting close

@BerniesCorner said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

Has Sami become number 1 hooker passing Fitz and Coles in the GOAT AB team of recent living memory?
Peak Coles was my number 1 but it's getting close

I know he’s playing well, but it’s pretty early days. He hasn’t even reached Mealamu level let alone the lofty heights of Fitzy.

So what did we learn from Bled2?

That the two camps will never meet halfway on Akira Ioane.

@ACT-Crusader Yet peak Coles redefined the position especially on the wing!

@junior said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Victor-Meldrew said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Tim said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@mariner4life He's had four blinders in the last five tests. Yet dickheads will just assume that because we aren't making spectacular wide moves, while scoring 40 points, it must because we have a defective centre. Moronic.

I think he's the best option at 13 and has come on in spades, but has some work-on's - e. g. he needs to give his support players/wingers more space. There have been times when he's made a blistering break but edged towards the touchline which cramps his attack options.

This is very true but he has come on leaps and bounds in the relatively short time he has been a test match centre. If he continues on his current trajectory, he could be an absolute phenomenon at the RWC next year. Why give up that possibility, and the significant time that has been invested in his development to date, just because there remain a few rough edges

I liked the way he combined with a new centre yesterday from what little I saw. If he can keep his support runners with him and learn to hold the ball better, a la Conrad, rather than swap it from hand-hand, he'll be almost there.

That may sound like basic stuff, but his other play inc. his scramble defence, makes up for it IMHO.

I think the obvious thing to me is we have 3 test level fullbacks in JB, BB and WJ and really there is not that much between them.

At 12 we have no options as good as those three fullbacks. So JB to 12 has to be a no brainer as you still have two good options at 15. If we use JB at 15 we have no really good options at 12. Simples.

@SBW1 is Goodhue returning.? We have been waiting for years and although obviously one of Fozzies faves he really needs to earn his spot back. Goodhue is the new Kahui but not as good.

@TheMojoman said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

• Jordie is our best 12. He’s the missing piece at 12. Helps Richie with a running options and holds the defence creating more space for Rieko. Run, kick pass threat who can hit hard on defence. That said Fozzie will prob play him on wing now.

• We now have enormous depth in the front row to the point Ta’avao can’t even get a look in.

• Papali’i makes Cane redundant especially when Whitelock, Savea and Smith are available as captains.

• Akira Ioane needs to be persevered at 6. He showed he can play tight and defend well when the physicality stakes were high. Basically can do what Frizell, Barrett can do with much more upside.

• BB is the best option at FB giving us a triple pivot capability. That means Jordan is at 14. He’d make a great test FB but in the current setup he’s a 14.

They want Jordan at 14 to play a roving role and go looking for the ball , not be stuck out on the wing , it looks like to me he is starting to get the hang of that , starting to bob up more in the middle of the field ,

Hopefully just because he wears 14 on his back it doesn’t matter , we can still utilise all the good stuff that he brings

@kiwiinmelb doesn't hurt that Reece came on and made an immediate impact. It was great to see Jordan playing well and looking more confident. But having all 3 of our main wing options playing well adds that extra spice.

@ACT-Crusader said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

I think if we are going to persist with both Clarke and Ioane in the starting backline them we need to find a few inventive ways to better use them because I don’t think either of them are natural ball players. I think part of our fluency issues is because we want the ball in their hands to run but more often than not our attack is breaking down because they are either unwilling passers or they’re not confident doing it. To me it’s both a mental and skill thing.

This is not a criticism but if we are wanting to improve our efficiency we are going to have see a rapid improvement quickly or a change needs to occur.

I don't agree. With Mo'unga, Jordie and Beauden we have ample play makers. What we need to compliment them is people that are genuine threats with ball in hand, otherwise we'll find it hard to break down organised defenses. I think the balance of the backline we ran out was perfect, the biggest question mark was how Mo'unga and Beauden would go together, and it's clear they've done a lot of work there as this time around they really complimented each other.

I really, really hope we give this backline as much gametime as possible leading up to the RWC. It's so important that they are allowed to grow as a unit over a number of tests. I think other teams would be extremely weary of having to defend multiple play makers with Rieko, Clarke and Jordan running off them.

@broughie said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@SBW1 is Goodhue returning.? We have been waiting for years and although obviously one of Fozzies faves he really needs to earn his spot back. Goodhue is the new Kahui but not as good.

Kahui was so good. Very unlucky with injuries and Smith and Nonu having a mortgage on the midfield spots. Could really smash guys over with the best of them.

@chimoaus said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

I think the obvious thing to me is we have 3 test level fullbacks in JB, BB and WJ and really there is not that much between them.

At 12 we have no options as good as those three fullbacks. So JB to 12 has to be a no brainer as you still have two good options at 15. If we use JB at 15 we have no really good options at 12. Simples.

We've also got Perofeta and DMac as options at fullback.

But, none of these guys are like Jordie who is a great big bastard who commands the air - and is the closest thing we've had to Don Clarke since Don Clarke. Our defensive system has the wings pushing up and in - and leaving the opposition wings for the second line - i.e. Jordie to smash, which he does very well. I don't trust any of the other four to play that role effectively, so are we risking it, or chucking our whole defensive system out (OK cue the McLeod jokes, but I doubt we've got 10 tests before RWC)?

On the plus side, we've got ALB due back very shortly (and potentially Goodhue next year) as more powerful second five options than Havili.

Don't get me wrong - I was on the Jordie to 12 bandwagon a couple of years ago, maybe even at the start of this season - but it's late in the piece to be making a sea-change.

@No-Quarter said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

I don't agree. With Mo'unga, Jordie and Beauden we have ample play makers. What we need to compliment them is

Less critical fans?

With JB at 12 it was one of the few times our backline didn't look like shit this season. Certainly looked its best. It's worth a crack

@Chris-B said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@No-Quarter said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

I don't agree. With Mo'unga, Jordie and Beauden we have ample play makers. What we need to compliment them is

Less critical fans?

Hey I've been very measured in my analysis of Mo'unga, there were a couple of errors he made I could have gone to town on him over

@Chris-B I'm very sympathetic to your views on Jordie at the back, I was of the same view about moving him to 12, but I think he can be more influential there for the ABs where we can better utilise his strength with ball in hand and hard hitting defense. That said, if Beauden got injured that'd throw a big spanner in the works.

Jordie needs to be used at 12 on the EOYT, even just to see how effective he is against NH opposition. He's not going to have the luxury of running at Foley every test.

I think they should use Jordie at 12 against the big physical teams and persist with Havili against weaker opponents, if only to have match fit cover if Jordie goes down injured or has a Barrett Brain fart and gets a red card. We need more than one 12 and at the moment, Havili is the best back-up. Never put all your money on one player.

For the same reason, they should give Reece some starts on the wing and slot Jordan in at fullback (maybe in the second half) in some games.

@No-Quarter said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

That said, if Beauden got injured that'd throw a big spanner in the works.

The AB fullback role seems very similar to the Blues fullback role now. Perofeta would be a good fit for that pattern.

But we don't even know if he's capable of playing Test rugby yet

The AB's constantly being under pressure and having no 'easier' Tests has stalled any depth building

@Stargazer said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

I think they should use Jordie at 12 against the big physical teams and persist with Havili against weaker opponents, if only to have match fit cover if Jordie goes down injured or has a Barrett Brain fart and gets a red card. We need more than one 12 and at the moment, Havili is the best back-up. Never put all your money on one player.

For the same reason, they should give Reece some starts on the wing and slot Jordan in at fullback (maybe in the second half) in some games.

Has Jordie ever gotten a red card at test level? Or even at super level? Or are you mixing him up with a hot headed Crusader?

I get what you're saying though, but if we're gonna have a chance at this RWC we need to build some very solid combinations so that when push comes to shove we can rely on those combinations to get us through. We don't have much time to do that now. Constantly chopping and changing is not a luxary we have anymore, we'll just put ourselves under pressure and it leads to disjointed performances.

Jordie is and always has been a natural fit at 12. At 15 he is always going to be a little bit slow and lacks a bit of evasiveness to be a long term keeper. At some point he'll probably cop a card for leading with elbows and forearms hitting it up, but hey.
Rieko Ioane frequently does some pretty amazing stuff - particularly in defence - but blows about one try per game. And in close games we don't get a whole lot of opportunities to blow. Clarke has the same problem: can't find support, can't keep movements going. Of course he's a bit of a defensive liability at present too, so that's not great. Both those guys in one backline at the moment means you're going to leave points out there.
So if/when ALB comes back, then what? Is Rieko a better centre than him?

@Duluth said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@No-Quarter said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

That said, if Beauden got injured that'd throw a big spanner in the works.

The AB fullback role seems very similar to the Blues fullback role now. Perofeta would be a good fit for that pattern.

But we don't even know if he's capable of playing Test rugby yet

The AB's constantly being under pressure and having no 'easier' Tests has stalled any depth building

Yeah, that's been a real problem this year. We've also not had any tests against tier 2 nations to give people time in the black jumper, going straight into tests against a settled Irish team was tough. Perofeta was outstanding in SR and hadn't been sighted since which is a problem.

With 40 tests under his belt (a number of these at fullback) I'd think DMac has the edge on Perofeta when it comes to fullback options after Beaudy (if they wanted to keep Jordie at 12).