All Blacks XV 2024

@reprobate said in All Blacks XV 2024:

@Nepia said in All Blacks XV 2024:

@reprobate said in All Blacks XV 2024:

It helps keep the third choice guys happy and in the country which helps our depth and the quality of super rugby - we might have kept e.g. Bundee Aki.

Aki left when he was well down the depth chart. He's a poor example to use of a player we might have kept.

Just a general point really: if you keep more guys in the AB frame, they are less likely to leave. Kids who are barely even deserving of a super starting spot yet are not likely to leave, and are not really of benefit to the AB squad. It's better to keep those guys, because you never know when the guys ahead of them are going to have a bad injury, form fall off a cliff, or go overseas themselves.
I don't think he was that far down though - who was ahead of him: Nonu, Francis, Malakai at most - and the latter 2 not very convincing?

Aki left because he wanted to, not because he wasn't apprenticing in the ABs, he was a second year Super player and he went solely for money. He didn't leave for international rugby because he could have immediately played for Samoa.

@frugby How can it be profitable to travel all that way for a 2-game tour?

They are taking a 10 person management team and 30 players, like at least play more games and make it a worthwhile trip for everyone involved?

@Nepia said in All Blacks XV 2024:

@reprobate said in All Blacks XV 2024:

@Nepia said in All Blacks XV 2024:

@reprobate said in All Blacks XV 2024:

It helps keep the third choice guys happy and in the country which helps our depth and the quality of super rugby - we might have kept e.g. Bundee Aki.

Aki left when he was well down the depth chart. He's a poor example to use of a player we might have kept.

Just a general point really: if you keep more guys in the AB frame, they are less likely to leave. Kids who are barely even deserving of a super starting spot yet are not likely to leave, and are not really of benefit to the AB squad. It's better to keep those guys, because you never know when the guys ahead of them are going to have a bad injury, form fall off a cliff, or go overseas themselves.
I don't think he was that far down though - who was ahead of him: Nonu, Francis, Malakai at most - and the latter 2 not very convincing?

Aki left because he wanted to, not because he wasn't apprenticing in the ABs, he was a second year Super player and he went solely for money. He didn't leave for international rugby because he could have immediately played for Samoa.

he left for international, he was a project player, specifically signed with the intention of representing Ireland in the future. So money and internationally rugby

@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks XV 2024:

@Nepia said in All Blacks XV 2024:

@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks XV 2024:

@Nepia said in All Blacks XV 2024:

@reprobate said in All Blacks XV 2024:

It helps keep the third choice guys happy and in the country which helps our depth and the quality of super rugby - we might have kept e.g. Bundee Aki.

Aki left when he was well down the depth chart. He's a poor example to use of a player we might have kept.

The issue with Aki was Hansen selecting Francis Saili over him in 2013.

That's appears to just be your personal preference, Aki didn't even start for the Chiefs in the finals games in 2013.

And Saili wasn't even starting for the Blues in 2013 when he got picked for the mid Super AB squad....

Which doesn't make it the issue with Aki. It's just two players who weren't ready for the ABs only the one you don't like was selected.

@Machpants said in All Blacks XV 2024:

@Nepia said in All Blacks XV 2024:

@reprobate said in All Blacks XV 2024:

@Nepia said in All Blacks XV 2024:

@reprobate said in All Blacks XV 2024:

It helps keep the third choice guys happy and in the country which helps our depth and the quality of super rugby - we might have kept e.g. Bundee Aki.

Aki left when he was well down the depth chart. He's a poor example to use of a player we might have kept.

Just a general point really: if you keep more guys in the AB frame, they are less likely to leave. Kids who are barely even deserving of a super starting spot yet are not likely to leave, and are not really of benefit to the AB squad. It's better to keep those guys, because you never know when the guys ahead of them are going to have a bad injury, form fall off a cliff, or go overseas themselves.
I don't think he was that far down though - who was ahead of him: Nonu, Francis, Malakai at most - and the latter 2 not very convincing?

Aki left because he wanted to, not because he wasn't apprenticing in the ABs, he was a second year Super player and he went solely for money. He didn't leave for international rugby because he could have immediately played for Samoa.

he left for international, he was a project player, specifically signed with the intention of representing Ireland in the future. So money and internationally rugby

Regardless, it wasn't not being brought into train with the ABs in 2013 that "made" him go. He's a bad example of the point being made.

@frugby said in All Blacks XV 2024:

Suppose part of it comes down to being able to find competitive games. Portugal could have been fun, but that said reckon we'd still smoke em.

The fact that the Georgia game will be played in France (where a lot of their players play club rugby) suggests this is the situation. RugbyPass says that England A is playing Australia A on Nov 18 so maybe they could have played some A teams. Hard to organise at late notice though with the NH club situation.

In the hypothetical world where Aki stayed in NZ, he doesn't crack the ABs until at least 2016, because he would have remained behind Smith, Nonu, SBW (who returned from league) and Fekitoa (who had just guided the Highlanders to the SR title).

In this hypothetical world, I reckon he possibly goes to the Blues because SBW was coming back, and Nonu had just left to the Hurricanes... or Tamanivalu didn't end up at the Chiefs (who bolted into the ABs).

All things considered, Aki possibly makes the ABs that year, considering ALB and Tamanivalu bolted in, but they were centres. I doubt he gets in ahead of Crotty or SBW, so in short, he probably still ends up leaving anyway.

Riccitelli has a very well rounded game and has been part of the ABs XV before so I would be surprised if he isn't there.

@Nepia said in All Blacks XV 2024:

@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks XV 2024:

@Nepia said in All Blacks XV 2024:

@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks XV 2024:

@Nepia said in All Blacks XV 2024:

@reprobate said in All Blacks XV 2024:

It helps keep the third choice guys happy and in the country which helps our depth and the quality of super rugby - we might have kept e.g. Bundee Aki.

Aki left when he was well down the depth chart. He's a poor example to use of a player we might have kept.

The issue with Aki was Hansen selecting Francis Saili over him in 2013.

That's appears to just be your personal preference, Aki didn't even start for the Chiefs in the finals games in 2013.

And Saili wasn't even starting for the Blues in 2013 when he got picked for the mid Super AB squad....

Which doesn't make it the issue with Aki. It's just two players who weren't ready for the ABs only the one you don't like was selected.

That's where we agree to disagree. I thought Aki had shown enough to be selected.

From my memory Aki was an exciting young prospect at NPC level who was finding his way at Super level. Too raw and unestablished for consideration.

Aki was nowhere near the All Blacks when he left. I don't think he would have ever made the team.

@African-Monkey Brodie McAlister was excellent fo the Crusaders in 2023, showed all the attributes needed to be an All Black (not to mention the physical size too). It's only since then that he's had injury issues.

Aki would have matured late, all the physical gifts there already and the subtleties would have come later AKA Nonu.

I’d take him in an absolute heartbeat over Jordie.

@MN5 said in All Blacks XV 2024:

Aki would have matured late, all the physical gifts there already and the subtleties would have come later AKA Nonu.

I’d take him in an absolute heartbeat over Jordie.

Nice 20:20 hindsight

@Machpants said in All Blacks XV 2024:

@MN5 said in All Blacks XV 2024:

Aki would have matured late, all the physical gifts there already and the subtleties would have come later AKA Nonu.

I’d take him in an absolute heartbeat over Jordie.

Nice 20:20 hindsight

I woulda said the same in 2017

@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks XV 2024:

If the All Blacks XV were being selected with an eye to the future, as opposed to just the current 'next best' squad, then I think we'd see something along the lines of:

Hookers (2): Brodie McAlister, Jack Taylor
Props (5): George Bower, Xavier Numia, Kauvaka Kauivelata, Marcel Renata, Saula Ma'u
Locks (3): Josh Lord, Fabian Holland, Zach Gallagher
Loose forwards (7): Oliver Haig, Malachi Wrampling, Cameron Suafoa, Peter Lakai, Sean Withy, Hoskins Sotutu, Simon Parker
Halfbacks (2): Noah Hotham, Folau Fakatava
First fives (1): Josh Jacomb
Centres (4): AJ Lam, Quinn Tupaea, Dallas McLeod, Gideon Wrampling
Wings (3): Kini Naholo, Jacob Ratumaitavuki-Kneepkens, Emoni Narawa
Fullbacks (2): Ruben Love, Zarn Sullivan, Chay Fihaki

A couple of slightly more experienced guys in there but largely forward-thinking.

But suspect there'll be some names like Cullen Grace in there.

I think that depends entirely on how far into the future you're looking.

In my eyes the form players of SR who:

1. Didn't make the AB squad, and
2. Are contracted for at least next year to NZR

should be the ones selected. Even if the AB XV is considered a development squad, it requires guys with experience to mentor the younger guys and offer an incentive in case injury/ form strikes those selected before them.

We can't just keep throwing young guys in the deep end hoping that exposure is beneficial.

You need an experienced player to captain the team. There isn't even that many provincial captains amongst the players listed. Suafoa might not be guaranteed a start and Christie would be replaced.

Co-captains would be my tip. Riccitelli and Lio-Willie.

@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks XV 2024:

Aki was nowhere near the All Blacks when he left. I don't think he would have ever made the team.

@African-Monkey Brodie McAlister was excellent fo the Crusaders in 2023, showed all the attributes needed to be an All Black (not to mention the physical size too). It's only since then that he's had injury issues.

He seemed to gain 10kg in the Irish ‘system’.

@African-Monkey said in All Blacks XV 2024:

Why does Brodie McAlister get rated so highly? He's never been a regular starter at SR level and is always injured. What is it, 40 games in 6 seasons and is 27?

For all the criticism Ricci Riccitelli gets, at least he's a regular at SR level and was arguably the best performing SR hooker this year (with Aumua).

I'm not Riccitelli's biggest fan over the years by any stretch, but he deserves to be ahead of McAlister that's for sure.

One of the most debated topics on here recently, if Riccitelli wore a red and black jersey, would that help his chances?

Corey Flynn springs to mind.

Brodie McAlister is 27 and made 43 appearances for the Crusaders since 2019 - 10 as a starter.

I've never seen him play a single game that suggests he should be anywhere near the ABs.

@brodean said in All Blacks XV 2024:

Brodie McAlister is 27 and made 43 appearances for the Crusaders since 2019 - 10 as a starter.

I've never seen him play a single game that suggests he should be anywhere near the ABs.

No, but that says more about the hooker depth than anything.

In 2020/2021, the ABs had Taylor, Coles, Aumua and Taukei'aho.

Still playing Super Rugby were capped ABs in Parsons, Coltman & Harris, with Eklund, Dixon also playing great rugby. Add in Makalio being a very solid backup for the Crusaders, and both Vikena and McAlister being viewed as good up and comers, and the situation was totally different to what we saw this year...

Taylor now playing out of his skin, Aumua awesome in Super Rugby, Riccitelli good in a great team, Taukei'aho underwhelming by his own standards before snapping his achilles.

In behind that, the Highlanders had little, the Canes arguably even less, the Chiefs had Slater doing tidy, and Thompson who for all his x-factor is way too inconsistent. The Blues had Eklund and Vikena battling for who could warm the bench for RR. Other than Bell showing good signs around the field for the Crusaders, outside of the above, the hooker landscape was atrocious.

@brodean said in All Blacks XV 2024:

Brodie McAlister is 27 and made 43 appearances for the Crusaders since 2019 - 10 as a starter.

I've never seen him play a single game that suggests he should be anywhere near the ABs.

10 starts in 6 years? Far out, and he's seen as an option for higher honours, whilst Riccitelli gets laughed at as an option? That'll do me.

@African-Monkey said in All Blacks XV 2024:

@brodean said in All Blacks XV 2024:

Brodie McAlister is 27 and made 43 appearances for the Crusaders since 2019 - 10 as a starter.

I've never seen him play a single game that suggests he should be anywhere near the ABs.

10 starts in 6 years? Far out, and he's seen as an option for higher honours, whilst Riccitelli gets laughed at as an option? That'll do me.

He's had Codie Taylor ahead of him (and was injured when Taylor was out this year). Ricky Riccitelli hasn't had an All Black hooker to compete with or he would have no doubt earned far fewer starts.

Based on how Asafo Aumua has been playing off the bench for the All Blacks, maybe someone who's a specialist bench hooker at Super Rugby level isn't a bad option.

@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks XV 2024:

@African-Monkey said in All Blacks XV 2024:

@brodean said in All Blacks XV 2024:

Brodie McAlister is 27 and made 43 appearances for the Crusaders since 2019 - 10 as a starter.

I've never seen him play a single game that suggests he should be anywhere near the ABs.

10 starts in 6 years? Far out, and he's seen as an option for higher honours, whilst Riccitelli gets laughed at as an option? That'll do me.

He's had Codie Taylor ahead of him (and was injured when Taylor was out this year). Ricky Riccitelli hasn't had an All Black hooker to compete with or he would have no doubt earned far fewer starts.

Based on how Asafo Aumua has been playing off the bench for the All Blacks, maybe someone who's a specialist bench hooker at Super Rugby level isn't a bad option.

Big difference when Brodie McAlister was coming on at SR level off the bench when the majority of the time the Crusaders were well in control and up by plenty infront of half full stadiums, compared to top tier test rugby where most games are in the balance. Infact, the only thing McAlister did this year was botch that lineout against the Tahs (with the game inthe balance) which ended up costing the Crusaders the game, and also a spot in the playoffs.

Anyone could have been effective off the bench at hooker in those Crusaders glory years, even Andrew Makalio was. He didn't seem to be anywhere near as good however when he left and went to the Highlanders.

No one seems to rate Cam Millar but I think he is more suited to international rugby than Jacomb. I would take these two though.

@cgrant said in All Blacks XV 2024:

No one seems to rate Cam Millar but I think he is more suited to international rugby than Jacomb. I would take these two though.

I'd definitely take both... what is massively in Millar's favour (short-term) is that the Highlanders' 10 jersey is his, and I think at first five, to reach the All Blacks you need to pretty much be a nailed on starter. Unless McKenzie gets injured, Jacomb's best bet is starting at fullback.

@cgrant said in All Blacks XV 2024:

No one seems to rate Cam Millar but I think he is more suited to international rugby than Jacomb. I would take these two though.

He's certainly got really good skills. He reminds me of Simon Culhane skill wise but has a better running game.

Having the winning mentality is important and Millar is in teams who are only starting to win.

@African-Monkey said in All Blacks XV 2024:

@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks XV 2024:

@African-Monkey said in All Blacks XV 2024:

@brodean said in All Blacks XV 2024:

Brodie McAlister is 27 and made 43 appearances for the Crusaders since 2019 - 10 as a starter.

I've never seen him play a single game that suggests he should be anywhere near the ABs.

10 starts in 6 years? Far out, and he's seen as an option for higher honours, whilst Riccitelli gets laughed at as an option? That'll do me.

He's had Codie Taylor ahead of him (and was injured when Taylor was out this year). Ricky Riccitelli hasn't had an All Black hooker to compete with or he would have no doubt earned far fewer starts.

Based on how Asafo Aumua has been playing off the bench for the All Blacks, maybe someone who's a specialist bench hooker at Super Rugby level isn't a bad option.

Big difference when Brodie McAlister was coming on at SR level off the bench when the majority of the time the Crusaders were well in control and up by plenty infront of half full stadiums, compared to top tier test rugby where most games are in the balance. Infact, the only thing McAlister did this year was botch that lineout against the Tahs (with the game inthe balance) which ended up costing the Crusaders the game, and also a spot in the playoffs.

Anyone could have been effective off the bench at hooker in those Crusaders glory years, even Andrew Makalio was. He didn't seem to be anywhere near as good however when he left and went to the Highlanders.

This is an important point and I feel many of the fringe Crusaders players have been good by association - riding the coat tails of the likes of Whitelock and Mo'unga.

Tom Christie started his SR career after McAlister, has played more games and has played a bigger role in the Crusaders dynasty but not even Crusaders fans are talking about him as a potential AB.

Despite Bell's awful throwing he's shown far more around the field and has also shown in the past he can throw a good lineout. Despite only being 22 and having a couple of years under his belt Bell has already surpassed McAlister and that's not a good sign.

@brodean said in All Blacks XV 2024:

@African-Monkey said in All Blacks XV 2024:

@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks XV 2024:

@African-Monkey said in All Blacks XV 2024:

@brodean said in All Blacks XV 2024:

Brodie McAlister is 27 and made 43 appearances for the Crusaders since 2019 - 10 as a starter.

I've never seen him play a single game that suggests he should be anywhere near the ABs.

10 starts in 6 years? Far out, and he's seen as an option for higher honours, whilst Riccitelli gets laughed at as an option? That'll do me.

He's had Codie Taylor ahead of him (and was injured when Taylor was out this year). Ricky Riccitelli hasn't had an All Black hooker to compete with or he would have no doubt earned far fewer starts.

Based on how Asafo Aumua has been playing off the bench for the All Blacks, maybe someone who's a specialist bench hooker at Super Rugby level isn't a bad option.

Big difference when Brodie McAlister was coming on at SR level off the bench when the majority of the time the Crusaders were well in control and up by plenty infront of half full stadiums, compared to top tier test rugby where most games are in the balance. Infact, the only thing McAlister did this year was botch that lineout against the Tahs (with the game inthe balance) which ended up costing the Crusaders the game, and also a spot in the playoffs.

Anyone could have been effective off the bench at hooker in those Crusaders glory years, even Andrew Makalio was. He didn't seem to be anywhere near as good however when he left and went to the Highlanders.

This is an important point and I feel many of the fringe Crusaders players have been good by association - riding the coat tails of the likes of Whitelock and Mo'unga.

Tom Christie started his SR career after McAlister, has played more games and has played a bigger role in the Crusaders dynasty but not even Crusaders fans are talking about him as an AB.

That's fair.... but this is the exact same thing Riccitelli has done. He is a good solid player, no doubt, but he looked extra good because he was surrounded by a Blues pack that was dominating games.

@frugby

Riccitelli has improved his all round game a lot over the last few years. There has been a clear improvement in scrummaging, lineout, and mauling.

Where the Blues failed to win a title with Eklund as the leading hooker they won with Riccitelli this year.

Compare the stats of the two players for Super Rugby 2024:

Collision Workrate per 80 Minutes (carries/tackles/rucks)
61 Riccitelli
18.15 McAlister

Total Impacts Per 80 Minutes
3.36 Riccitelli
1.34 McAlister

Riccitelli had the highest collision workrate of any preferred starting hooker in NZ.

In terms of regular starting hookers only Aumua, Taukei'aho and Bell had higher impacts per 80 minutes in Super Rugby.

In contrast this year McAlister was one of the lowest for both collision workrate and impacts for NZ Hookers and also for Crusaders forwards.

Riccitelli also played well for NZ XV so I think he deserves to be there.

Just to be clear, I don't think McAlister has been great this year - injuries thwarted him for much of the season. But he's starting to get back into the swing of things and at the height of his game, in 2023, he looked ready to step up as an All Black.

Bell didn't pass him at any point, he just got opportunities when McAlister was out injured and returning to full fitness. I don't actually think McAlister will ever make the All Blacks now because they've got enough experienced heads in there but if they needed someone to step in, McAlister is the player that has looked closest to an All Black of all the uncapped players running around NZ at present.

Riccitelli may be small but he deserves more of a chance than - what is it - 3rd rated hooker in a badly performing team...

I have noticed the apparent reasoning not to promote Blues forwards as being part of a good team doesn't seem to apply to hardly playing Crusaders forwards when considering them for higher honours

My tuppence ...

I do not see RR as the next great long term in his position.

But I don't see why we're ignoring him as the currently 3rd best guy.

Pick him as no.3 no.2 (well, no.4 as ST is injured), and make the best young guy(s) learn how to be better.

Fuck the World Cup in 3 years. Be the best now, or challenge the whipper-snappers to be be better than who is the best now.

If they can't match it then they're not good enough to be the best in 2027.

(Extend these opinions to Sam Cane and TJ Sayonara.)

Couldn’t agree more Boo-boo.. There are more than 30+ tests before the next World Cup and this idea of every game being a World Cup trial is stupid. Yes you have to try new players out and while not a great Robertson fan he has done well in uncovering some good new talent but the game in front of you is the most important.

I don't think Ricky Riccitelli would have made a major difference during the Rugby Championship. Let's put it that way.

I think it would be healthy for Aumua to have some competition. His form has been a mixed bag this year at test level.

George Bell gave away a couple of dumb penalties including a yellow yesterday. His discipline is quite poor. Is he a guy we can really rely on under the acid test of test rugby if one of the top guys gets injured? I'd rather Riccitelli.

Riccitelli is a very reliable player and good in every facet. His game doesn't really have any weaknesses.

@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks XV 2024:

I don't think Ricky Riccitelli would have made a major difference during the Rugby Championship. Let's put it that way.

I don't think anyone is saying that.

@nostrildamus said in All Blacks XV 2024:

@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks XV 2024:

I don't think Ricky Riccitelli would have made a major difference during the Rugby Championship. Let's put it that way.

I don't think anyone is saying that.

If they're not going to make a difference now then the All Blacks should largely be picking guys who will make the most difference in the when they're needed in the future.

@Mr-Fish

Aumua needs pressure on him and Bell isn't providing that because he's ill disciplined and has an unreliable lineout.

@brodean said in All Blacks XV 2024:

@Mr-Fish

Aumua needs pressure on him and Bell isn't providing that because he's ill disciplined and has an unreliable lineout.

There is plenty of Pressure on Aumua he is not doing much to retain his place in the squad.
There is pressure to stay there.