Kellow looks like he could also be a utility. Just saying.
@Mauss said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@brodean said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
There is ingrained habits but your post assumes too much of the players. Macdonald and Foster wanted to play wider games and Akira Ioane obliged. When Vern came along and wanted to keep it close Akira Ioane immediately followed the game pattern and stuck to it all year. So in the case of Akira Ioane I think it shows that clearly they were not ingrained habits.
Also Fifita when he went back to lock for the Canes played a very tight game and was one of the most physical players in the comp. He was also one of the most physical players in the stodgy NH.
My point is that I think it's better for coaches to develop the naturally built up game of a player rather than make them conform to preconceived requirements.
Some players can adapt and make major changes to their game, but it's certainly not the majority. Kaino and McCaw I think both changed the way they played significantly - Kaino before becoming a fixture for the ABs, and McCaw during his tenure. Michael Jones before those guys.
I agree that playing to a guy's strengths is almost always going to go better than making them play to their weaknesses. That's the tricky thing about building a team, putting all the strengths and weaknesses together such that overall the mix (and the roles given) lead to success - which is why you're bang-on with the coaches and their square peg / round hole weird use of different style players. I think it also makes looking at any position in isolation tricky - or even the loose trio without the contribution of the tighties (as per e.g. your post a while back on the different styles of play from the fringe prop candidates) being taken into account. In the current team, I guess the assumption is Lomax/Taylor/Williams/Barrett/Vaai/Savea/Sititi + who? They do lack an enforcer. They do lack a lineout target. They also lack a volume ruck-hitter.
@Mauss said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@brodean said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
There is ingrained habits but your post assumes too much of the players. Macdonald and Foster wanted to play wider games and Akira Ioane obliged. When Vern came along and wanted to keep it close Akira Ioane immediately followed the game pattern and stuck to it all year. So in the case of Akira Ioane I think it shows that clearly they were not ingrained habits.
Also Fifita when he went back to lock for the Canes played a very tight game and was one of the most physical players in the comp. He was also one of the most physical players in the stodgy NH.
My point is that I think it's better for coaches to develop the naturally built up game of a player rather than make them conform to preconceived requirements.
Yes, Akira Ioane was able to develop a tighter style by playing blindside (already starting in 2020, due to him clearly not being wanted as a number 8 by the AB selectors). But what did it actually lead to? Sure, he was a crucial factor in the Blues winning SR. But he made the change for the ABs. And now he's 30 years old, a prime age for a blindside, and he's playing in the second division of Japanese Rugby. Playing as a number 8, by the way. Doesn't seem like an investment with the desired pay off.
So yes, players can change, according to coaching demands. But I'd argue that it very rarely leads to a player developing to the fullest of his abilities.
On Fifita, we'll just have to agree to disagree, as we clearly have very different memories of how he played. I'd agree that he's improved with age. I still wouldn't consider him to be the enforcer within the Scarlets' pack, though, I'd give that to Lousi.
Yeah I disagree with the implication of your comment. Akira Ioane has always had very good tight skills with cleaning, pick and close in defence. As someone pointed out he's left a massive hole in the Blues.
@Mauss said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@brodean said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
Finau is highly effective at attacking rucks and Parker in defensive rucks.
The only thing I'd add to this comparison is that it matters where those attacking and defensive rucks are cleaned.
While I do think Finau is a more than adequate cleaner (the occasional sloppy technique notwithstanding), his percentages are aided by the fact that most of his cleaning work is on the edge. Cleans up the middle of the field, where most of the forwards are concentrated, demand more of the cleaner.
Disagree again. Finau is a good cleaner. He goes in low and is powerful.
@Frank said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@brodean said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@nostrildamus said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
do they consider how his injury rate affects the loosie combo?
No. No they don't.
That was pretty clear when they used tests last year to build Blackadder back into form.
I don't share your pessimism.
Primarily because Blackadder's will get injured
Secondly, because a blind man can see Parker is stronger in contact and this frees up Sititi and Savea to do their thing.
Thirdly because Parker has just turned 25 and EB is 30
That just means Parker can be overlooked for a RWC cycle.
@reprobate said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
In the current team, I guess the assumption is Lomax/Taylor/Williams/Barrett/Vaai/Savea/Sititi + who? They do lack an enforcer. They do lack a lineout target. They also lack a volume ruck-hitter.
You’re right in what they’re missing isn’t that mysterious. But it does look like those qualities aren’t that commonly found together, at least to me.
If you’d just ask your six to be a solid lineout operator while hitting plenty of rucks, players like Delany and Ah Kuoi (both AB XV) seem like excellent candidates. But I wouldn’t necessarily see them as enforcers (not to mention the lack of an attacking game). Someone like Papali’i cleans a huge number of rucks but he’s not much of a lineout target (at least, not an experienced one) nor does he make a lot of dominant tackles.
Do you see any standout candidates who possess these characteristics (enforcer, lineout, rucks)? Every choice does seem like a potentially flawed one, whether it's because of (a lack of) size, work rate or aggression.
@Mauss said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@reprobate said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
In the current team, I guess the assumption is Lomax/Taylor/Williams/Barrett/Vaai/Savea/Sititi + who? They do lack an enforcer. They do lack a lineout target. They also lack a volume ruck-hitter.
You’re right in what they’re missing isn’t that mysterious. But it does look like those qualities aren’t that commonly found together, at least to me.
If you’d just ask your six to be a solid lineout operator while hitting plenty of rucks, players like Delany and Ah Kuoi (both AB XV) seem like excellent candidates. But I wouldn’t necessarily see them as enforcers (not to mention the lack of an attacking game). Someone like Papali’i cleans a huge number of rucks but he’s not much of a lineout target (at least, not an experienced one) nor does he make a lot of dominant tackles.
Do you see any standout candidates who possess these characteristics (enforcer, lineout, rucks)? Every choice does seem like a potentially flawed one, whether it's because of (a lack of) size, work rate or aggression.
Nah, there's nobody who can do it all right now. I think the Chiefs approach of using two (as you highlight) quite different players in Parker and Finau to play different roles and basically 40 minutes each would be an interesting one for the ABs (and/or horses for courses with the opposition).
I think the lack of that one player does beg the question: if nobody fits the gap that exists, would it be better to move some of the other pieces to create a different shaped gap? (not necessarily just loosies)
I think a player of Parkers stature is exactly what the ABs are missing, however something I've long felt was an issue in his game is lacking that little bit of aggression, and as some of those stats show, he isn't quite there in terms of workrate on both sides, although when you compare him and Finau, I guess that's how the Chiefs want him to play.
Talented player and ticks alot of boxes in terms of what the AB pack needs, so who knows...
@taniwharugby it's odd, I've not really noticed him until this season, where his aggression has seemed to the fore.
@brodean said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
Fifita seemed to lose favour because he was playing lock at the Canes. When he played lock he was a tighter player than Squire. And despite Fifitas comments around contact he was a very physical player.
I'm not sold on the categorisations of loose and tight. It's not so black and white.
For example Akira Ioane played it tight last year. Players tend to play as they're asked to by the coaches. Vern wanted Akira to play tighter and he did.
Fifita was the best athletic specimen of them all but certainly didn’t do himself many favours with his comments. He could have been the answer given the right circumstances.
@reprobate said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@Mauss said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@brodean said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
There is ingrained habits but your post assumes too much of the players. Macdonald and Foster wanted to play wider games and Akira Ioane obliged. When Vern came along and wanted to keep it close Akira Ioane immediately followed the game pattern and stuck to it all year. So in the case of Akira Ioane I think it shows that clearly they were not ingrained habits.
Also Fifita when he went back to lock for the Canes played a very tight game and was one of the most physical players in the comp. He was also one of the most physical players in the stodgy NH.
My point is that I think it's better for coaches to develop the naturally built up game of a player rather than make them conform to preconceived requirements.
Some players can adapt and make major changes to their game, but it's certainly not the majority. Kaino and McCaw I think both changed the way they played significantly - Kaino before becoming a fixture for the ABs, and McCaw during his tenure. Michael Jones before those guys.
I agree that playing to a guy's strengths is almost always going to go better than making them play to their weaknesses. That's the tricky thing about building a team, putting all the strengths and weaknesses together such that overall the mix (and the roles given) lead to success - which is why you're bang-on with the coaches and their square peg / round hole weird use of different style players. I think it also makes looking at any position in isolation tricky - or even the loose trio without the contribution of the tighties (as per e.g. your post a while back on the different styles of play from the fringe prop candidates) being taken into account. In the current team, I guess the assumption is Lomax/Taylor/Williams/Barrett/Vaai/Savea/Sititi + who? They do lack an enforcer. They do lack a lineout target. They also lack a volume ruck-hitter.
It’s worth pointing out Ma’a Monu as one of these types. I’d argue he’s almost as big a loss as Kaino ( less so given Jordie has been good at times )
@MN5 said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@reprobate said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@Mauss said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@brodean said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
There is ingrained habits but your post assumes too much of the players. Macdonald and Foster wanted to play wider games and Akira Ioane obliged. When Vern came along and wanted to keep it close Akira Ioane immediately followed the game pattern and stuck to it all year. So in the case of Akira Ioane I think it shows that clearly they were not ingrained habits.
Also Fifita when he went back to lock for the Canes played a very tight game and was one of the most physical players in the comp. He was also one of the most physical players in the stodgy NH.
My point is that I think it's better for coaches to develop the naturally built up game of a player rather than make them conform to preconceived requirements.
Some players can adapt and make major changes to their game, but it's certainly not the majority. Kaino and McCaw I think both changed the way they played significantly - Kaino before becoming a fixture for the ABs, and McCaw during his tenure. Michael Jones before those guys.
I agree that playing to a guy's strengths is almost always going to go better than making them play to their weaknesses. That's the tricky thing about building a team, putting all the strengths and weaknesses together such that overall the mix (and the roles given) lead to success - which is why you're bang-on with the coaches and their square peg / round hole weird use of different style players. I think it also makes looking at any position in isolation tricky - or even the loose trio without the contribution of the tighties (as per e.g. your post a while back on the different styles of play from the fringe prop candidates) being taken into account. In the current team, I guess the assumption is Lomax/Taylor/Williams/Barrett/Vaai/Savea/Sititi + who? They do lack an enforcer. They do lack a lineout target. They also lack a volume ruck-hitter.It’s worth pointing out Ma’a Monu as one of these types. I’d argue he’s almost as big a loss as Kaino ( less so given Jordie has been good at times )
A bit off topic. I do think Kaino is our greatest blindside however we were dominant in the early tens even when he was injured and I feel that JB isn't close to Nonu yet. JB is still prone to brain farts and poorly executed kicks.
Nonu is just as big a loss as Kaino.
Given the talent options were Luatua, Squire, Fifita, Frizell, Papali'i, Hemopo, Ioane, and Finau I would say the only reason a long term six has not been developed to replace Kaino is coaching and player management failure. All of these guys were immensely talented.
It was just been a cycle of giving a guy a go and then tossing them on the heap, then looping back to them if they were still around.
I feel chucking Blackadder in there over Finau or Parker or Sititi is only going to delay one of those players development only for Blackadder to get injured again.
@brodean said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
Given the talent options were Luatua, Squire, Fifita, Frizell, Papali'i, Hemopo, Ioane, and Finau I would say the only reason a long term six has not been developed to replace Kaino is coaching and player management failure. All of these guys were immensely talented.
It was just been a cycle of giving a guy a go and then tossing them on the heap, then looping back to them if they were still around.
I feel chucking Blackadder in there over Finau or Parker or Sititi is only going to delay one of those players development only for Blackadder to get injured again.
Not to mention that he’s hardly a world beater when he is actually fit.
Some journalists who for some reason actually get paid to write about sport should hang their heads at the wanky drivel they wrote about him when he came back from injury as some sort of messiah.
Not sure about some of shit being talked about the Chiefs loosies here. We play wider than any other kiwi team. We commit fewer (forwards) players to cleaning as we rely on really quick cleans and carries. So, we may have fewer numbers of rucks hit as we need those rucks to be hit and cleaned well. (Edit: one of the things which is excellent this year is the accuracy of the clean across the forwards).
We are also getting a lot of our workrate out of our locks - Vaa'ii has hit more than 200 rucks at basically 90% effectiveness. It's not surprising to see Ah Kuio with greater ruck numbers than Finau for example, as Ah Kuio has been mainly playing at lock. He's slightly less effective but doing a great job, even though we have some hybrid players out there at times, it suits our speed game.
We have Jacobson at 7, which means we can achieve balance. I'm not sure that he is fast enough to play there for the ABs, but arguably that is the way of replicating our game plan at the next level (with either him or Blackadder or Paps at 7), but it likely means putting either Ardie or Sititi on the bench, as we can then pick a Parker or Finau at 6, and one of the explosive players at 8.
I'm not saying I would do that, btw but it helps us achieve balance.
@brodean said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
Given the talent options were Luatua, Squire, Fifita, Frizell, Papali'i, Hemopo, Ioane, and Finau I would say the only reason a long term six has not been developed to replace Kaino is coaching and player management failure. All of these guys were immensely talented.
It was just been a cycle of giving a guy a go and then tossing them on the heap, then looping back to them if they were still around.
I feel chucking Blackadder in there over Finau or Parker or Sititi is only going to delay one of those players development only for Blackadder to get injured again.
The longer they persistent with EB the more suspicious I become that Razor and Ryan will not solve the loose forward problem
@canefan said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@brodean said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
Given the talent options were Luatua, Squire, Fifita, Frizell, Papali'i, Hemopo, Ioane, and Finau I would say the only reason a long term six has not been developed to replace Kaino is coaching and player management failure. All of these guys were immensely talented.
It was just been a cycle of giving a guy a go and then tossing them on the heap, then looping back to them if they were still around.
I feel chucking Blackadder in there over Finau or Parker or Sititi is only going to delay one of those players development only for Blackadder to get injured again.
The longer they persistent with EB the more suspicious I become that Razor and Ryan will not solve the loose forward problem
At what stage does ‘I used to work with his Dad’ wear off ?
I cant be bothered checking the team sheets for this, as @Bovidae probably remembers off the top of his head. Has Parker started at 7 this year? I wonder if some of his greater involvement per minute just reflects him spending more time playing in the middle at 7 (arguably a great thing that he has this versatility).
@gt12 said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
Not sure about some of shit being talked about the Chiefs loosies here. We play wider than any other kiwi team. We commit fewer (forwards) players to cleaning as we rely on really quick cleans and carries. So, we may have fewer numbers of rucks hit as we need those rucks to be hit and cleaned well. (Edit: one of the things which is excellent this year is the accuracy of the clean across the forwards).
We are also getting a lot of our workrate out of our locks - Vaa'ii has hit more than 200 rucks at basically 90% effectiveness. It's not surprising to see Ah Kuio with greater ruck numbers than Finau for example, as Ah Kuio has been mainly playing at lock. He's slightly less effective but doing a great job, even though we have some hybrid players out there at times, it suits our speed game.
We have Jacobson at 7, which means we can achieve balance. I'm not sure that he is fast enough to play there for the ABs, but arguably that is the way of replicating our game plan at the next level (with either him or Blackadder or Paps at 7), but it likely means putting either Ardie or Sititi on the bench, as we can then pick a Parker or Finau at 6, and one of the explosive players at 8.
I'm not saying I would do that, btw but it helps us achieve balance.
According to those stats the Canes and the Crusaders play wider.
Also I think most people are leaning towards Parker or Finau ¯_(ツ)_/¯
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
After watching Blackadder's performance last night, I was wondering what kind of mental gymnastics people would perform in order to criticise his play. I have not been disappointed.
Nothing too strenuous in terms of mental gymnastics, busy and ineffective seem to sum things up pretty accurately
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
After watching Blackadder's performance last night, I was wondering what kind of mental gymnastics people would perform in order to criticise his play. I have not been disappointed.
If he dominates and is durable in the test matches I assume he will be given to play, I'll happily be proven wrong. But as Razor has said, SR performance isn't important to him, and EB has considerable form to back up my opinions
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
After watching Blackadder's performance last night, I was wondering what kind of mental gymnastics people would perform in order to criticise his play. I have not been disappointed.
His main criticism is that he is always injured for long periods. This prevents both him and another player reaching their true potential for the AB's when the coaches continually try to bring him back into the AB's.
Durability is an attribute of a player worth considering when you're wanting to build a cohesive team.
@MN5 said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
After watching Blackadder's performance last night, I was wondering what kind of mental gymnastics people would perform in order to criticise his play. I have not been disappointed.
Nothing too strenuous in terms of mental gymnastics, busy and ineffective seem to sum things up pretty accurately
You don't even watch bro, just repeat soundbites like you do memes.
He was effective last night (YC aside), and he was also very effective in his 40 minutes the week prior.
@reprobate said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@MN5 said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
After watching Blackadder's performance last night, I was wondering what kind of mental gymnastics people would perform in order to criticise his play. I have not been disappointed.
Nothing too strenuous in terms of mental gymnastics, busy and ineffective seem to sum things up pretty accurately
You don't even watch bro, just repeat soundbites like you do memes.
He was effective last night (YC aside), and he was also very effective in his 40 minutes the week prior.
That’s 110 total minutes. That’s incredible for him.
I take it all back
@MN5 said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@reprobate said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@MN5 said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
After watching Blackadder's performance last night, I was wondering what kind of mental gymnastics people would perform in order to criticise his play. I have not been disappointed.
Nothing too strenuous in terms of mental gymnastics, busy and ineffective seem to sum things up pretty accurately
You don't even watch bro, just repeat soundbites like you do memes.
He was effective last night (YC aside), and he was also very effective in his 40 minutes the week prior.That’s 110 total minutes. That’s incredible for him.
I take it all back
Nobody is arguing that he isn't always injured - if anything that makes the performances more impressive. Though I suppose he's had a lot of practice at coming back from injury, should have it down pat by now.
@gt12 said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
I cant be bothered checking the team sheets for this, as @Bovidae probably remembers off the top of his head. Has Parker started at 7 this year? I wonder if some of his greater involvement per minute just reflects him spending more time playing in the middle at 7 (arguably a great thing that he has this versatility).
Not this year.
He had a few games at 7 last season but he's been exclusively used at 6 and 8 in 2023.
@brodean said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
Jason Ryan loves him some Blackadder and I can't see him looking past him.
If he loved him wouldn't he give him some months to recover?
Has Blackladder lasted 6 or even 4 weeks this season without injury?
I thought Blackadder played really well last night, against more than decent opposition. But looking at his game - close to source, lots of involvements, tackling around the waist rather than up high - I'm always wondering whether his game isn't best suited to 7.
But then you have another issue, which is that he isn't particularly fast or dynamic around the ruck. Now Sam Cane was pretty similar, especially in his later years, but we also saw that he was actively targeted in this sense last season, with attackers running strike moves to isolate and pass him by. So it would probably be the same for Blackadder.
To me, there's growing clarity around the loose forward roles in Super Rugby and this, I think, should translate to AB selection. You have opensides who are very mobile, excel at the breakdown and who have an active but loose role on attack as a carry and link player (Savea, Kirifi, Lasaqa). Then you have number 8s who are high-volume carriers and are able to physically impose their carry game through the middle of the field (Sititi, Lakai, Sotutu and Lio-Willie).
That just leaves blindside, which is probably still the most varied position amongst the NZ SR sides. Players like Finau, Parker, Flanders, Shields, Iose, Choat, Segner, Howden, Withy, Grace, and Blackadder have all played there, which is a mix of mostly opensides and number 8s.
I think the AB selection this year should really try to cement their vision on what they want from a blindside, with openside and number 8 becoming relatively straightforward, in my view. It’s a chance to bed in the loose forward-selection for the next few seasons, at least, which should really help the team.
But is Wallace actually the best 6? Arguably he was the best 6 for the ABs over the last season. So even if he is better at 8 perhaps they might still play him at 6. Unlikely though unless they don't want to move Savea.
If they play Sititi at 6, that means Savea at 8, and who at 7? Jacobson, Blackadder, Kirifi? All make for a small back row.
@taniwharugby said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
If they play Sititi at 6, that means Savea at 8, and who at 7? Jacobson, Blackadder, Kirifi? All make for a small back row.
I personally think playing Savea at 7 gives them more/better options then the next step is which are the best 6/8 and surely Sititi is there. Then the question is, is he best at 8 then choose a 6, or can he fill that 6 role and there is a better 8 alternative than 6 alternative?
@nostrildamus if they play Ardie at 7, Sotutu could play 8, but if they want Sititi at 8, it means they are likely to play Blackadder at 6, back to the small back row....as much as I don't wish ill on a player, but if Blackadder isn't available, that brings probably both Finau and Parker as options, and getting chances too.
@taniwharugby said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@nostrildamus if they play Ardie at 7, Sotutu could play 8, but if they want Sititi at 8, it means they are likely to play Blackadder at 6, back to the small back row....as much as I don't wish ill on a player, but if Blackadder isn't available, that brings probably both Finau and Parker as options, and getting chances too.
Yes I'll leave it to all those unbiased Crusader fans to tell me EB is having a stormer run of form but I kind of think - been there, tried that, waited in the hospital waiting room long enough....
@zedsdeadbaby said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
I’m yet to clear my mind of the thinking that Finau is a bit of a flat track bully. But he has the ingredients for sure.
And he’s a penalty magnet. That stood out big time tonight in the second 40.