All Blacks v France II

@Mauss said in All Blacks v France II:

In the end, the gameplan bore very little fruit, Norris’ and Tosi’s combined 4 carries for a total of 7 metres made barely a fundamental upgrade on de Groot’s and Newell’s combined 4 carries for 3 metres made. Norris put in a big shift on defence but the argument can be made that this defensive shift wouldn’t be necessary if the quality of the breakdown, maul and lineout hadn’t plummeted with the bench forwards coming on. If the bench plan is to bring carrying impact then the coaches need to make sure that there are enough forwards on the field who focus on securing the breakdown. Because any plan that results in your backs having to consistently provide clean ball is a plan destined to fail.

I think this hits the nail on the head to explain the decline in the AB's attacking structure in the second half. Thank you for the insight.

This puts the AB's in a conumdrum going forward as per the weekend for example there's really no-one on the bench with a fantastic reputation of shifting bodies at the ruck. Norris, Tosi and Samisoni are ball carriers, Finau plays wide and Kirifi is more of a scavenger at the breakdown.

It begs the question when the bench comes on who's job is it to clear bodes at the ruck? It would appear no-one and everyone...

@Windows97 said in All Blacks v France II:

@Mauss said in All Blacks v France II:

In the end, the gameplan bore very little fruit, Norris’ and Tosi’s combined 4 carries for a total of 7 metres made barely a fundamental upgrade on de Groot’s and Newell’s combined 4 carries for 3 metres made. Norris put in a big shift on defence but the argument can be made that this defensive shift wouldn’t be necessary if the quality of the breakdown, maul and lineout hadn’t plummeted with the bench forwards coming on. If the bench plan is to bring carrying impact then the coaches need to make sure that there are enough forwards on the field who focus on securing the breakdown. Because any plan that results in your backs having to consistently provide clean ball is a plan destined to fail.

I think this hits the nail on the head to explain the decline in the AB's attacking structure in the second half. Thank you for the insight.

This puts the AB's in a conumdrum going forward as per the weekend for example there's really no-one on the bench with a fantastic reputation of shifting bodies at the ruck. Norris, Tosi and Samisoni are ball carriers, Finau plays wide and Kirifi is more of a scavenger at the breakdown.

It begs the question when the bench comes on who's job is it to clear bodes at the ruck? It would appear no-one and everyone...

This is the problem with most people's idea of the 'impact player'. Stack your bench with ball runners, and you won't actually have the ball enough for them to do anything.
It's one of the reasons I'd look at starting Samisoni and using Taylor for the 2nd half. Also one running prop and one cleaning prop per half, same with the loosies...

@Mauss said in All Blacks v France II:

Nice post Mauss.

One thing to consider is we dominated possession in the first half while the French had more of the possession in the 2nd half. They had 68% in the last 10 minutes. We were unable to win turnovers off them. Given that context there is not as many attacking rucks for the props to attend.

Perhaps a better balance would be achieved by starting Norris with Newell and letting De Groot empty the tank for the last 20 minutes?

As you mentioned the sample data is not high from one game. During the Super Season Newell is obviously the hardest worker of the All Blacks props when it comes to rucks.

Using The Analyst stats for the SRP season...

Total Rucks Per 80 Minutes
31.23 Fletcher Newell
30.37 Tyrel Lomax
28.66 Ollie Norris
27.26 Tamaiti Williams
27.24 Pasilio Tosi
24.14 Ethan de Groot

Norris, Williams and Tosi hit a similar amount of rucks however it should be noted that Newell averages the most even though he is a starting prop and he puts in some big minutes.

Attacking Ruck Effectiveness
90.7 Ollie Norris
85.8 Pasilio Tosi
81.3 Fletcher Newell
80.0 Tyrel Lomax
73.4 Tamaiti Williams
70.6 Ethan de Groot

Defensive Ruck Effectiveness
18.2 Pasilio Tosi
11.9 Tamaiti Williams
8.8 Ollie Norris
6.1 Tyrel Lomax
5.6 Fletcher Newell
4.3 Ethan de Groot

These season stats confirm your analysis about De Groot's effectiveness. While Tosi, and Norris average less ruck involvements they are more effective than the others. During the Hurricanes Brumbies qualifying final it was noticeable how much more effective Tosi was at the breakdown when he came on compared to Lomax.

Breakdown Steals Per 80 Minutes
0.36 Ollie Norris
0.33 Tamaiti Williams
0.19 Pasilio Tosi
0.16 Tyrel Lomax
0.1 Fletcher Newell
0.0 Ethan de Groot

@reprobate said in All Blacks v France II:

This is the problem with most people's idea of the 'impact player'. Stack your bench with ball runners, and you won't actually have the ball enough for them to do anything.
It's one of the reasons I'd look at starting Samisoni and using Taylor for the 2nd half. Also one running prop and one cleaning prop per half, same with the loosies...

I agree although if Tuipulotu starts with Holland then having the carrying prop or hooker becomes less important. I thought we had a good balance in the starting tight five on Saturday. It changed the dynamic.

@Jet said in All Blacks v France II:

@sparky said in All Blacks v France II:

@Jet Clear YC. Refs are consistent on that one. Beauden Barrett should have known better.

Wasnt it forward in the buildup?

Not clear and obvious to me, and I did look.

Hate the interpretation (it was not a premeditated act, not therefore "cynical" IMO) but i can accept the ruling based on current standards.

@reprobate said in All Blacks v France II:

blocking passes discourages attacking rugby

My bugbear.

Blocking passes is not illegal. Especially if they're knocked back.

Knocking the ball down is not illegal.

It's illegal if it is knocked forward.

Tackling discourages attacking rugby. Don't think we're banning that.

@sparky said in All Blacks v France II:

@reprobate Beauden Barrett must have got a YC for that, across his career for the Hurricanes, the Blues and the All Blacks, at least half a dozen times. I really wish he'd stop doing it.

Saved a try. Worth the yellow.

@booboo said in All Blacks v France II:

@sparky said in All Blacks v France II:

@reprobate Beauden Barrett must have got a YC for that, across his career for the Hurricanes, the Blues and the All Blacks, at least half a dozen times. I really wish he'd stop doing it.

Saved a try. Worth the yellow.

Is having your 10 in the bin worth saving 5 to 7 points given the 14 man team is more likely to concede points and far less likely to gain any? And is more tired than before (although perhaps this is minor if a back is carded?)

@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France II:

@booboo said in All Blacks v France II:

@sparky said in All Blacks v France II:

@reprobate Beauden Barrett must have got a YC for that, across his career for the Hurricanes, the Blues and the All Blacks, at least half a dozen times. I really wish he'd stop doing it.

Saved a try. Worth the yellow.

Is having your 10 in the bin worth saving 5 to 7 points given the 14 man team is more likely to concede points and far less likely to gain any? And is more tired than before (although perhaps this is minor if a back is carded?)

Little damage done: didn't we come out of that period on top?

@booboo said in All Blacks v France II:

@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France II:

@booboo said in All Blacks v France II:

@sparky said in All Blacks v France II:

@reprobate Beauden Barrett must have got a YC for that, across his career for the Hurricanes, the Blues and the All Blacks, at least half a dozen times. I really wish he'd stop doing it.

Saved a try. Worth the yellow.

Is having your 10 in the bin worth saving 5 to 7 points given the 14 man team is more likely to concede points and far less likely to gain any? And is more tired than before (although perhaps this is minor if a back is carded?)

Little damage done: didn't we come out of that period on top?

Yes we played better when he left the field but my question is more regards general strategy than BB per se.

@booboo we scored twice IIRC...that said, in the past 5 or 6 years, the ABs have had far too much practice at playing a man down, especially a Barrett, they likely have the Barrett protocol in place for when one of them leaves the field

@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France II:

@booboo said in All Blacks v France II:

@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France II:

@booboo said in All Blacks v France II:

@sparky said in All Blacks v France II:

@reprobate Beauden Barrett must have got a YC for that, across his career for the Hurricanes, the Blues and the All Blacks, at least half a dozen times. I really wish he'd stop doing it.

Saved a try. Worth the yellow.

Is having your 10 in the bin worth saving 5 to 7 points given the 14 man team is more likely to concede points and far less likely to gain any? And is more tired than before (although perhaps this is minor if a back is carded?)

Little damage done: didn't we come out of that period on top?

Yes we played better when he left the field but my question is more regards general strategy than BB per se.

Sometimes it's worth it to concede a YC.

@Windows97 said in All Blacks v France II:

@Mauss said in All Blacks v France II:

In the end, the gameplan bore very little fruit, Norris’ and Tosi’s combined 4 carries for a total of 7 metres made barely a fundamental upgrade on de Groot’s and Newell’s combined 4 carries for 3 metres made. Norris put in a big shift on defence but the argument can be made that this defensive shift wouldn’t be necessary if the quality of the breakdown, maul and lineout hadn’t plummeted with the bench forwards coming on. If the bench plan is to bring carrying impact then the coaches need to make sure that there are enough forwards on the field who focus on securing the breakdown. Because any plan that results in your backs having to consistently provide clean ball is a plan destined to fail.

I think this hits the nail on the head to explain the decline in the AB's attacking structure in the second half. Thank you for the insight.

This puts the AB's in a conumdrum going forward as per the weekend for example there's really no-one on the bench with a fantastic reputation of shifting bodies at the ruck. Norris, Tosi and Samisoni are ball carriers, Finau plays wide and Kirifi is more of a scavenger at the breakdown.

It begs the question when the bench comes on who's job is it to clear bodes at the ruck? It would appear no-one and everyone...

The main impact on the second half play was Tuipulotu and Vaa'i being injured for the last quarter. That meant Finau had to move to lock and we had the three small loose forwards on the field. I doubt that was part of the plan but injuries happen.

For the movement in question where Beauden hits a ruck Tosi, Taukei'aho, Finau, and Kirifi all hit rucks in that movement. Savea and Norris do not.

All of the forwards apart from Vaa'i are lined up on one side of the ruck when Beauden switches play away from the forwards so the main reason why Beauden needs to attend that ruck is he switches play to a side of the field which has no forward support once Vaa'i is the carrier.

At some point of the game all 10's will need to hit a ruck - especially if its due to a play of their own making. This particular incident isn't evidence that Tosi and Norris don't hit enough rucks.

One thing not mentioned is how well Rieko Ioane did marking Theo Attissogbe. Last week he was their most dangerous player and this week he was effectively shut down.

vaai only had 3 carrys all game. we really need more than that . rugbypass stats anyone else have any?are these wrong for someone who majority had him as a top performer thats really low

@ploughboy said in All Blacks v France II:

vaai only had 3 carrys all game. we really need more than that . rugbypass stats anyone else have any?are these wrong for someone who majority had him as a top performer thats really low

They were high impact carries.

1 was a linebreak and a try.

Rieko scored his try after the ruck from another of his carries.

Someone needs to hit some rucks when Savea and Lio Willie carry a lot.

He's a big body in a dominant lineout and maul that led to a few tries.

@canefan said in All Blacks v France II:

He knocked the ball down so it's a clear YC

Imagine all the yellow cards if that was the case. Words matter.

If it’s

Williams, Taylor, Lomax - starting
EDG, ST, Newell - bench

Then I think those trios have pretty good balance.

I’m still thinking 6/2 bench is something to be explored.

@ACT-Crusader think I'd swap Newell/Lomax, just get a little bit more oomph on attack off the bench, with a bit more power in the tackle.

@Bones said in All Blacks v France II:

@ACT-Crusader think I'd swap Newell/Lomax, just get a little bit more oomph on attack off the bench, with a bit more power in the tackle.

Yeah I was going to add, perhaps starting the Saders front row would be good from a combo also. But that might’ve been too predictable