All Blacks vs Springboks II

@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Player wise.

Proctor has been given a real shot at centre but is not improving. Get rid.

Wallace Sititi got heaps of shit but watching it he was literally the only loose forward doing anything. When he went off we had no one cleaning anything up.

Vaai some good, lots bad, no physical presence when we needed it.
Barrett was shit.

My random thoughts (all of which I qualify with "but alcohol may have affected my judgement and memory"):

1. Thought Proctor had his best game in black. Not a massively high bar, but saw the glimmerings of promise.
2. Thought Sititi was pretty good myself.
3. Also thought Vaa'i was OK
4. He's got to find the courage to drop Barrett

I agree with your comment about that attacking lineout just before half time.

That was begging for a standard throw to 2 or 4 and a maul.

I didn't notice the backs down, but maybe ABs did which tempted them in to the high risk option.

Sad but we're a paper tiger now. Interesting that our own decline mirrors (at least in my view) the decline of the game as any type of spectacle that's worth watching.

@SammyC said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@brodean said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Also Tupou Vaa'i's tackle success this season is 77% which is shocking for a loose forward/lock even at NPC level.

All that laughing and clapping looks pretty dumb when you top the missed tackles stat 3 matches in a row

That guy is an idiot. Must be someone better

Our scrum only improved when Fabian Holland came on. Same as what happened in Eden Park. The referee was very focused on ruling on what was presented to him and he constantly saw our scrum going backwards in for the majority of 2 tests so he was going to reward this. Vaai and Barret not a powerful enough pairing in the engine room.

Just like not picking Caleb Clarke on the wing when we got massacred in the air was stupid so was not picking our most powerful lock when they had worked over our scrum.

Are their any wingers or fullbacks in NZ who are good under the high ball other than Caleb Clarke? We used to have Corey Jane, Ben Smith, Israel Dagg, Richard Kahui.

@tubbyj said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Our scrum only improved when Fabian Holland came on. Same as what happened in Eden Park. The referee was very focused on ruling on what was presented to him and he constantly saw our scrum going backwards in for the majority of 2 tests so he was going to reward this. Vaai and Barret not a powerful enough pairing in the engine room.

Just like not picking Caleb Clarke on the wing when we got massacred in the air was stupid so was not picking our most powerful lock when they had worked over our scrum.

@tubbyj said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Our scrum only improved when Fabian Holland came on. Same as what happened in Eden Park. The referee was very focused on ruling on what was presented to him and he constantly saw our scrum going backwards in for the majority of 2 tests so he was going to reward this. Vaai and Barret not a powerful enough pairing in the engine room.

Just like not picking Caleb Clarke on the wing when we got massacred in the air was stupid so was not picking our most powerful lock when they had worked over our scrum.

@tubbyj said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Our scrum only improved when Fabian Holland came on. Same as what happened in Eden Park. The referee was very focused on ruling on what was presented to him and he constantly saw our scrum going backwards in for the majority of 2 tests so he was going to reward this. Vaai and Barret not a powerful enough pairing in the engine room.

Just like not picking Caleb Clarke on the wing when we got massacred in the air was stupid so was not picking our most powerful lock when they had worked over our scrum.

holland at least one scrum packed at blindside

@tubbyj said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Are their any wingers or fullbacks in NZ who are good under the high ball other than Caleb Clarke? We used to have Corey Jane, Ben Smith, Israel Dagg, Richard Kahui.

We also used to have backs who could consistently kick well......

@tubbyj

From memory Fihaki goes well under the high ball lol

@mariner4life Excellent analysis.

@kidcalder said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@game_film Not sure Sotutu is the answer

One player isn't the answer. Our inability to clinically perform fundamentals such as kick receptions, line outs and scrums seems to be increasingly apparent as games go on. Sometimes we scrape home, this time we got pumped. Fault lies with the everyone from the coaches to the players. There are some fundamental problems in how we are approaching the game at the moment. And we have a coach who is impeding the progress of the whole group because of his selections

Our ten got to almost as many rucks as our blindside. Haha

I find ruck arrival to be the most useless stat.

But it does seem to tie to the eye test on Parker.

@tubbyj said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Are their any wingers or fullbacks in NZ who are good under the high ball other than Caleb Clarke? We used to have Corey Jane, Ben Smith, Israel Dagg, Richard Kahui.

He wasn’t even a winger which makes the current guys efforts look even worse

Extremely low running metres from the back three. They have the advantage of returning kicks so pick up easy metres normally

I know this has been brought up with loosies in the past but Parker was parked out wide near or on the wing (no pun intended) - presumably by design whereas last week he was playing in the middle of the field.

@Duluth Their back three killed ours. It wasn't close.

We gave their back 3 yards after the catch, a luxury ours were not afforded.

Considering the width we played with, those numbers are testament to the excellent SA scramble to ot allow the break outs

@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

I know this has been brought up with loosies in the past but Parker was parked out wide near or on the wing (no pun intended) - presumably by design whereas last week he was playing in the middle of the field.

Yeah, on attack we had Sititi on one side and savea/carter on the other, because thats where the ball was going, the middle was left to the tighties who we bypassed a lot anyway. EdG with no runs but a few passes.

Their kicks seemed much higher than ours, and positioned to allow their chasers ample chance to compete. By comparison, they seemed to be able to field our kicks under little to no pressure most of the time

Just because the second half was worse and we took a halftime lead doesn't mean the first half was very good.

The signs were all there in the first half

First half territory stats: Boks 75% ABs 25%

Boks had 2 first half tries that we escaped from - the halfback knock on and the Jordie try saver.

We were playing with fire in the first half.

@Duluth Kolbes numbers dont standard out if you remove the 75m try...

But otherwise, agree we were poor

Some of our wide play looked great. I don't really remember us taking the ball up the guts much?

@Duluth said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

View image

Our ten got to almost as many rucks as our blindside. Haha

What did they do when they got there? Who was playing halfback whilst others were securing/ disrupting ball?

@KiwiMurph we probably expected to run them off thier feet, unfortunately the opposite happened and we reverted to kick and hope.

We get into games of force back so often, and we lose so often, whether from metres to a lineout or they move us about enough after several kicks, they pick thier moment to run it they make big metres.

Our kicking game, either defensively or as an attacking platform (as so many do much better) is so poor at the moment, it is embarrassing really, we have learnt nothing in the past 5 or 6 years, in fact, as we hold aging players, it is getting worse.

@canefan said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@kidcalder said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@game_film Not sure Sotutu is the answer

One player isn't the answer. Our inability to clinically perform fundamentals such as kick receptions, line outs and scrums seems to be increasingly apparent as games go on. Sometimes we scrape home, this time we got pumped. Fault lies with the everyone from the coaches to the players. There are some fundamental problems in how we are approaching the game at the moment. And we have a coach who is impeding the progress of the whole group because of his selections

I think we have seen the importance of having quality players across your whole 23. Or at the minimum players who can perform their core role and let others shine..

Seriously how does someone like Brodie McCallister get selected for the All Blacks with problematic lineout throwing? Why was this not noted after his debut or picked up at practice this week? It is like a time warp back to Anton Oliver where core roles are not a big deal if you are a good bloke and rugged team man.

A great Bok performance

@tubbyj said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Seriously how does someone like Brodie McCallister get selected for the All Blacks with problematic lineout throwing?

And George Bell. Both selections lie at the feet of Ryan.

@stodders said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Second half slumps continue. The days of the ABs running teams down in the last 20 are done. The supposedly “bigger” Boks have finished the last 2 matches (and the 2 last year in SA) with all the momentum.

ABs have no ability to wrest control when they lose it. They play fine when they have control. Saw it against Argentina and now against Boks. Overplaying, poor decision making - call it what you will. But test match pressure is crushing the AB leaders and decision makers. Mistake upon mistake compounds and the pressure rises. Rather than reset and going back to basics, they try for the next Hail Mary….with obvious consequences they don’t work.

This is the nadir of the last few years. Some really big decisions need to be made.

The greats like McCaw and Carter used to grind out a hard won 20 metres and do it again.
Dinks are a cop out.

@canefan said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@Dan54 said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Anyway women up in our hotel room in Wellington, and I still pissed at what I saw. I actually said to Mrs, that could save us some money, as I feel I won't probably bother to coming to a test again. I can handle us losing, but not thinking an AB team pulled the plug with 15 minutes to go. If I see any press conference and Razor or anyone makes excuses, apart from pointing out how bad they seem to of been coached and played, I will kick the tv. And I can't afford a new one!

This is such a negative post by your standards Dan, a huge indictment on the team. They have failed us all

I know mate, as a matter of principle, I try to avoid being negative, in here ( or any forum), but like most of us I am hurting!

@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@Tim said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@ACT-Crusader The new Clyde Rathbone?

Ethan Hooker. He attacked the line and competed in the air.

Have to admit when he had the ball I was getting confused by the commentary. I really am stupid.

The other thing, I noticed once we got close to halftime , and until end of game, if we did anything to look at getting a head of steam up, a Bok would go down injured. I know it's a piss off etc, but I never saw Scooter get in refs ear. I was sitting just in front a few touring Bok supporters who laughed and said it was there game. We weren't arguing etc, just agreeing, and the bottom line is if our captain etc are doing job, we should stay switched on anyway!
Was noticeable that they had a wterboy on sideling, conveying message non stop, he would use hand signals, and quite often just hold uo a number of fingers. Again why not us?

@NTA f*ck does that mean we can still win it.

@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Hard to fathom for most of you after such a drubbing but better decisions and ball retention and this match is very, very different

The game plan is a far bigger problem than cattle

I agree.
However we need a captain. It's obvious.
Roigard will make a big difference.
We need a 10.

@tubbyj said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@canefan said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@kidcalder said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@game_film Not sure Sotutu is the answer

One player isn't the answer. Our inability to clinically perform fundamentals such as kick receptions, line outs and scrums seems to be increasingly apparent as games go on. Sometimes we scrape home, this time we got pumped. Fault lies with the everyone from the coaches to the players. There are some fundamental problems in how we are approaching the game at the moment. And we have a coach who is impeding the progress of the whole group because of his selections

I think we have seen the importance of having quality players across your whole 23. Or at the minimum players who can perform their core role and let others shine..

Seriously how does someone like Brodie McCallister get selected for the All Blacks with problematic lineout throwing? Why was this not noted after his debut or picked up at practice this week? It is like a time warp back to Anton Oliver where core roles are not a big deal if you are a good bloke and rugged team man.

There were two very poor throws, then another stuff up on the lift, and then one he hit Holland.

Yes it’s disappointing but Anton was our first choice hooker when those woes occurred. Brodie is 4th choice. Also we have a long history of hookers not being great at hitting a target when they first become ABs. ADM, Sami, Hammett, even Mealamu was pot luck.

@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@brodean said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

So far we've had the 2nd worst defence in the comp.

The defensive workrate of our primary 7 leads a lot to be desired.

Completed Tackles per 80 Minutes
17.26 Parker
14.31 Lio Willie
13.55 Kirifi
12.88 Finau
11.05 Sititi
10.43 Vaa'i
10.2 Savea

Lowest defensive workrate of the loose forwards.

Also Tupou Vaa'i's tackle success this season is 77% which is shocking for a loose forward/lock even at NPC level.

I dont understand why Lio Willie wasn't fully selected in the squad to start with and when he did play well vs France why he didnt make the squad for The Rugby Championship. Instead foodbill Jacobson takes up a spot whilst Razor rotates 8 between Savea, Parker and Sititi

I understand he's a tad small in an ideal world but in terms of what we have I thought he got shafted.

He is small but he has a well balanced game and he seemed good enough to compete with the French forwards who though no the best were still physical.

I just do not fu@@cking understand
We all knew the Boks would bring fire to the scrums,would try to dominate line outs and would coat the ball with snow when they kicked
....
.
And they did and here we sit sucking our thumbs
This defeat has been coming for a while though

@Dan54 said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@canefan said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@Dan54 said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Anyway women up in our hotel room in Wellington, and I still pissed at what I saw. I actually said to Mrs, that could save us some money, as I feel I won't probably bother to coming to a test again. I can handle us losing, but not thinking an AB team pulled the plug with 15 minutes to go. If I see any press conference and Razor or anyone makes excuses, apart from pointing out how bad they seem to of been coached and played, I will kick the tv. And I can't afford a new one!

This is such a negative post by your standards Dan, a huge indictment on the team. They have failed us all

I know mate, as a matter of principle, I try to avoid being negative, in here ( or any forum), but like most of us I am hurting!

I woke up in the middle of the night, remembered what happened, and was shocked. Could hardly believe it.

@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@NTA f*ck does that mean we can still win it.

Looks to me like anyone can.

Boks have to be favourites tho after last night and games to come at Kings Park and ?Twickenham??

I'm expecting the ABs to roar back into it with a backlash performance at Eden Park, then Perth will determine if they're a shot.

@Dan54 said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

The other thing, I noticed once we got close to halftime , and until end of game, if we did anything to look at getting a head of steam up, a Bok would go down injured. I know it's a piss off etc, but I never saw Scooter get in refs ear. I was sitting just in front a few touring Bok supporters who laughed and said it was there game. We weren't arguing etc, just agreeing, and the bottom line is if our captain etc are doing job, we should stay switched on anyway!
Was noticeable that they had a wterboy on sideling, conveying message non stop, he would use hand signals, and quite often just hold uo a number of fingers. Again why not us?

Same thing in the BF game. Their big fatties went down periodically with some "injury". Out comes the ice bag and the others are there sucking in the big ones