@sparky said in Springboks v Argentina Twickenham:
@ExiledHalfback said in Springboks v Argentina Twickenham:
I think France will really test this Boks side
France will have a rock solid scrum, an excellent back row, one of the great players of all time at Half Back and pace to burn out wide.
I rate the South African lineout and kicking game more.
But it will be one hell of a Test match.
I think DuPont is out. On today’s performance, France will win.
DuPont is over hyped though
@W32 said in Springboks v Argentina Twickenham:
@sparky said in Springboks v Argentina Twickenham:
@ExiledHalfback said in Springboks v Argentina Twickenham:
I think France will really test this Boks side
France will have a rock solid scrum, an excellent back row, one of the great players of all time at Half Back and pace to burn out wide.
I rate the South African lineout and kicking game more.
But it will be one hell of a Test match.
I think DuPont is out. On today’s performance, France will win.
DuPont is over hyped though
God, do you ever shut up?
@sparky said in Springboks v Argentina Twickenham:
@W32 Antonie DuPont did his ACL in March. The last announcement (at the end of June) was that his rehabilitation was in it final stages and his target was to be back playing by the end of November.
Unlikely that he plays the Springboks on 8th November, but not totally impossible.
“It’s going well, but it’s still a long time. It’s my second time with the cruciate ligaments, so I want to be patient and do things right to come back in the best possible condition,” he said before confirming a return to play date. “End of November or beginning of December, it won’t be before then.”
Great game by the Pumas.
Boks were markedly off their best, and some very dumb / elementary errors.
Moodie lucky not to get a second yellow - and red card.
BUT: they did enough (and sometimes played really well). Well done.
I cant say too much because I didn't watch either game today.
In fact I made a point of not watching either game to-day.
I was pretty certain the officiating was going to be diabolical, as it always is in rugby games at the highest level.
But I still follow the game.
From the comments I've read about both games, I was absolutely correct in my assumptions.
The referees are placed in a difficult position with the intense scutiny they are under..
I dont blame them.
But the whole spectatcle for me, makes for a very irritating watch, so I dont.
If you want to see a good game of rugby now days, you should go and watch the amateurs (or juniors), much more fun.
Which is what I do.
From what I have observed tho, the Springboks definitely play the laws of the game (and the referees) better than anyone else at the present.
@Billy-Webb said in Springboks v Argentina Twickenham:
@mohikamo
I actually watched both games.
Officiating was fine.
The AB v Wallabies game probably the best.
Sure, mistakes were made. But on balance, absolutely fine.
I understand your stoicism and turning of the other cheek, and im not sure what vintage you are, so maybe you are just conditioned by the modern ways being as they are?
Im 40.
The game was much better from about 1997-2007 than the current iteration and "my team" won none of those world cups. Yes it was more like the Wild West and thuggery was essentially self policed but we had far less scandal. There was spear tackle gate and Michelak's forward pass-gate in the game that never happened. Bar that it was the halcyon days.
The sport has descended into nit pickery which isnt a problem in and of itself, I love NFL for example.
But we now have nit pickery coupled with rife inconsistency. And this just winds everyone up.
You can justifiably see something this week let go, that cost your team last week when reffed by another bloke. Not marginal stuff. Completely different interpretations of the laws as they are reffed week to week.
Taavao getting red for head clash with Ringrose, Porter gets yellow the next week for breaking Retallicks eye socket. Ikitau gets yellow today for same offence. They are all red, all yellow, or all nothing. It's not an a le carte menu.
Same Cane, RWC final. Red card for hitting Kriel from a 1 yard run up. Kolisi in the same game...10 yard run up into Ardies head, drawing blood....yellow.
Accidental offside today called against Australia. Two French refs invent their own laws in the dying seconds of Lions test 3 in 2017 to NOT give NZ a penalty for accidental offside.
Today Moodie gets away with batting down a pass in the act of intercepting ( a rule I personally feel is really harsh)....but it's yellow every day of the week. For it to not even be a penalty today is farcical. Im sorry but im being gas lit by officialdom.
The sport lacks credibility and integrity. I cant buy in to what im watching any more.
A few quotes from another forum today:
"I think there's a certain level of implicit dishonesty in the Laws, specifically with regards the breakdown. If refs are regularly going to ignore aspects of the Laws, then they should be changed to accurately reflect the reality of the game. If creating an entertaining spectacle is more important than reffing to the Laws, then just change them. The inconsistency is what's most frustrating with the game."
"I think it's a mix of both, but mostly application. There's way too much vibe-reffing. Piardi just regularly makes sh*t up.
I'd like to see a challenge system where the captain, or coaching setup, can call from a full TMO/ref review. If they're right, they get to keep the challenge, if they're wrong, that's it lost.
I'd also like to see benefit of the doubt go against cynical play. At the moment, it's rewarded way too much, and is dealt with incredibly inconsistently across the refs. For the last 5 or 6 years, SA have had a pattern of just infringing and giving away immediate penalties once the 22 is breached to slow momentum. It's a very intentional part of their defense, imo. TMO should be keeping a count of penalties in the 22, and 3 or 4 penalties within a certain rolling timeframe should be an automatic warning. There's wild variety in terms of how much bullshit a team can get up to in their 22 before ref A gives a warning v ref B."
"Rugby really does has a ref problem. Piardi decided that game, and in doing so, the championship. After a cracking competition, it ends on a very sour note, imo."
"I'm about 30 minutes behind the live action, but Piardi absolutely bottled giving Moodie a second yellow card for a deliberate knock on. And yet he's very quick to warn the pumas about deliberately giving scrum free kicks. He's an infuriating ref. SA make it a 3 point game a few minutes later. No way in hell that decision hasn't had a material impact on the game here, and the championship."
"Moodie should have seen red for me. Was surprised they didn't even review it."
@Jet
I'm a decade and a half ahead older than you in terms of vintage. For whatever that is worth?
I appreciate the frustration, and the lengthy post and suggestions.
Rugby has always had this interpretation challenge. It's a ridiculously technical book of laws. And WR does seem to go out of its way to tinker endlessly with the laws which only further complicates matters.
My point being refs try their best with the rules they have at hand. Sometimes they manage it better than other days.
These last 2 games today, I think they did fine.
@Billy-Webb said in Springboks v Argentina Twickenham:
@Jet
I'm a decade and a half ahead of you in terms of vintage. For whatever that is worth?I appreciate the frustration, and the lengthy post and suggestions.
Rugby has always had this interpretation challenge. It's a ridiculously technical book of laws. And WR does seem to go out of its way to tinker endlessly with the laws which only further complicates matters.My point being refs try their best with the rules they have at hand. Sometimes they manage it better than other days.
These last 2 games today, I think they did fine.
Hard disagree for me.
Im genuinely easily pleased.
I dont like coming on the internet whinging every week.
You can tell a lot of people are miffed with it, Tuirinui today saying "I like to watch rugby being played" sarcastically.
Prof on the kick offs and kick ons podcast last week "jeez that ref loved a whistle didnt he" regarding Piardi.
The ref the same guy from Bledisloe 1 last week?
Interesting we had NH refs several times in TRC
@NTA said in Springboks v Argentina Twickenham:
The ref the same guy from Bledisloe 1 last week?
Interesting we had NH refs several times in TRC
Yeah it was him. Piardi.
Not a vintage bunch on the circuit at the moment.
Himself, Carley and that Wifi code from Georgia are up in the vanguard of ineptitude.
Whatever happened to Luke Pearce at international level? I always thought he was the best of the English refs. I don’t rate either Carley or Dickson that highly, but Carley was ok today in fairness. Some will say he was pedantic with the whistle, but the players should bear the brunt of that criticism.
Piardi was consistent in letting everything go like last week. And he can’t ref a scrum 
@Jet said in Springboks v Argentina Twickenham:
Etzebeth stayed down until TMO came in.
Springboks know exactly what they are doing in that regard. Best in the business.
In fairness, if the officiating team are average you have to paint a picture
@W32 said in Springboks v Argentina Twickenham:
@sparky said in Springboks v Argentina Twickenham:
@ExiledHalfback said in Springboks v Argentina Twickenham:
I think France will really test this Boks side
France will have a rock solid scrum, an excellent back row, one of the great players of all time at Half Back and pace to burn out wide.
I rate the South African lineout and kicking game more.
But it will be one hell of a Test match.
I think DuPont is out. On today’s performance, France will win.
DuPont is over hyped though
A very good player but have been genuinely shocked at how much he is spoken about. There’s two things I like about his game - he’s probably the best at clearing messy ball because of his low centre of gravity and strength, and his kicking - but everything else isn’t anything better than some of the other 9s running around.
There were a few really positive things the Pumas did that troubled the Boks last night. They were able to create number mismatches against the rush defence and some of their forwards really muscled up on the carry close in.
@stodders said in Springboks v Argentina Twickenham:
Whatever happened to Luke Pearce at international level? I always thought he was the best of the English refs. I don’t rate either Carley or Dickson that highly, but Carley was ok today in fairness. Some will say he was pedantic with the whistle, but the players should bear the brunt of that criticism.
Piardi was consistent in letting everything go like last week. And he can’t ref a scrum
I'll concede Carley was mostly consistent and I didn't see a lot of howlers from him.
But he seemed to be constantly looking to blow the we whistle and dramatically jump in waving his hands. Made it a poor spectacle.
Haven't seen the Twickers test.
@Jet said in Springboks v Argentina Twickenham:
For the last 5 or 6 years, SA have had a pattern of just infringing and giving away immediate penalties once the 22 is breached to slow momentum. It's a very intentional part of their defense, imo.
Haha
agree with that 100%
they do it so well too
obviously they do plan for it . . . and maybe even train for it . . .
Tough win by the Springboks . Credit to the Pumas, they played much better. The younger Springboks now know how to play in a final and to win it. The Wellington win was the cherry.
Sacha Feinberg is the new star of the game. A future star has made his debut at Twickenham : Tomas Rapetti, the 20 y.o. Argies THP who came off the bench during the second spell. He's a absolute beast, just ask Malcom Marx who was bumped off while trying to tackle him. He was playing during the June U20 World Cup where he looked like a man among boys.
@cgrant said in Springboks v Argentina Twickenham:
Sacha Feinberg is the new star of the game. A future star has made his debut at Twickenham : Tomas Rapetti, the 20 y.o. Argies THP who came off the bench during the second spell. He's an absolute beast, just ask Malcom Marx who was bumped off while trying to tackle him. He was playing during the June U20 World Cup where he looked like a man among boys.
Very impressed by the young fella
@MiketheSnow said in Springboks v Argentina Twickenham:
@cgrant said in Springboks v Argentina Twickenham:
Sacha Feinberg is the new star of the game. A future star has made his debut at Twickenham : Tomas Rapetti, the 20 y.o. Argies THP who came off the bench during the second spell. He's an absolute beast, just ask Malcom Marx who was bumped off while trying to tackle him. He was playing during the June U20 World Cup where he looked like a man among boys.
Very impressed by the young fella
If you're referring to Tomas Rapetti, I'm in complete agreement.
He already looked completely at home in International Rugby, and the Bok scrum dominance waned markedly with his introduction.
At 20, he is an infant in prop terms. Imagine how good he will be with a few years experience under the belt!
@Billy-Webb Jan Hendrik Wessels isn't a good measure for any TH. Now it was Ox I will agree.
@OomPB said in Springboks v Argentina Twickenham:
@Billy-Webb Jan Hendrik Wessels isn't a good measure for any TH. Now it was Ox I will agree.
I agree with you - up to a point Oom. Wessels hasn't impressed me (yet).
But the reality is he has been picked as a Bok, so he can't be all that bad? (Despite my misgivings).
And he did get owned by Rapetti in the scrums a good few times.
@DaGrubster said in Springboks v Argentina Twickenham:
Bit annoying the Argies gave up home advantage to play at Twickenham, which almost gave the boks another home match if you look at the make up of the crowd.
@MiketheSnow said in Springboks v Argentina Twickenham:
@DaGrubster said in Springboks v Argentina Twickenham:
Bit annoying the Argies gave up home advantage to play at Twickenham, which almost gave the boks another home match if you look at the make up of the crowd.
Oh i know the reasons. Still annoying that it gave the boks an easier match than flying to argentina in front of an Argentinean crowd.
I can see that they did it for player welfare as most argies will be heading back to Europe to their clubs.
Easier flight to London and then a short one as opposed to sa to BA, Ba to London.
Still, TRC has a huge asterisk for me due to the boks not having had to play their full compliment of away matches
@DaGrubster *****
@DaGrubster said in Springboks v Argentina Twickenham:
@MiketheSnow said in Springboks v Argentina Twickenham:
@DaGrubster said in Springboks v Argentina Twickenham:
Bit annoying the Argies gave up home advantage to play at Twickenham, which almost gave the boks another home match if you look at the make up of the crowd.
Oh i know the reasons. Still annoying that it gave the boks an easier match than flying to argentina in front of an Argentinean crowd.
I can see that they did it for player welfare as most argies will be heading back to Europe to their clubs.
Easier flight to London and then a short one as opposed to sa to BA, Ba to London.
Still, TRC has a huge asterisk for me due to the boks not having had to play their full compliment of away matches
There were probably more AB fans in Perth than Australian. Asterisk my ass.
@No-Quarter said in Springboks v Argentina Twickenham:
@W32 are you disputing that teams have better home records than away?
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make since the boks did not play this game at home.
@W32 are you being obtuse lol, Argentina have a much better record at home, ergo not having to play them in front of their home crowd benefits SA. Don't worry, I still think SA were the best team and deserved to win the RC, but history clearly shows that final game would have been tougher if played in Argentina.
@No-Quarter said in Springboks v Argentina Twickenham:
@W32 are you being obtuse lol, Argentina have a much better record at home, ergo not having to play them in front of their home crowd benefits SA. Don't worry, I still think SA were the best team and deserved to win the RC, but history clearly shows that final game would have been tougher if played in Argentina.
How do you figure the ABs winning there and then losing at home? The boks managed to beat them (Argentina) even though they played pretty badly. It used to be said on these forums that the boks would never win a WC away from home, and yet here we are with three more . Nowadays it’s more about which team shows up than home advantage. Especially true for this rugby championship
A quick glance shows:
Argentina vs SA in Argentina
Played 20, won 3, drawn 1, lost 16.
Argentina vs SA in SA
Played 20, won 1, lost 19
These stats will be the same for ALL teams, even more extreme when it comes to the Tier 1 nations who are very hard to beat at home, but even with Argentina only having 4 wins and a draw in their history against SA, 4 of those 5 matches were in Argentina.
This is such a silly argument, and I am quite taken aback that you think home ground advantage doesn't count for anything. It does, across all sports, not just rugby. Winning in the enemies back yard is what it's all about.
@No-Quarter said in Springboks v Argentina Twickenham:
A quick glance shows:
Argentina vs SA in Argentina
Played 20, won 3, drawn 1, lost 16.Argentina vs SA in SA
Played 20, won 1, lost 19These stats will be the same for ALL teams, even more extreme when it comes to the Tier 1 nations who are very hard to beat at home, but even with Argentina only having 4 wins and a draw in their history against SA, 4 of those 5 matches were in Argentina.
This is such a silly argument, and I am quite taken aback that you think home ground advantage doesn't count for anything. It does, across all sports, not just rugby. Winning in the enemies back yard is what it's all about.
It’s about as silly an argument as saying the boks won the RC with a caveat..
Well the caveat is that they didn't have to play two games in Argentina, they got to play one of those on neutral soil.
For the ABs upcoming northern tour, if they win the grand slam, they will have the same caveat - that they didn't have to play Ireland in Ireland which makes it a bit easier for them.
There is one team of which it doesn't matter whether they play at home or away.
And we know which one that is.
I didn't check; but I think they have a winning record against everyone away, except one team.
And they'd have a winning record against that particular team also, if they hadn't had to put up with dog cheat home referees for a century or so.
