Ashes 2025/6

@Virgil said in Ashes 2025/6:

Averaged 48 as an opener, nearly identical to Langer and only behind Hayden who averaged 50 (Australia top openers)

It pays not to do a direct comparison to our guys.

Mike Hussey ( I noticed him cos he is one above Khawaja ) had an outstanding career, helped by a magnificent start if I recall.

Michael Clarke ? a bit disappointing in that he let the average dip to 49.....

Fern favourite Dave Warner fifth on the list averaging 44 as an opener.

Matty Hayden averaging an unbelievable 50 as an opener, his little partner in crime Justin Langer only averaging 45.

Steve Waugh well and truly the best in his family. Same with Greg Chappell, both over 50, their stink brothers only managing early 40s.......

But back to the present, Khawaja retiring and uncertainly over Steve Smith ( 37 in June ) is music to Cam Greens ears I'm sure.

For openers, averaging over 40 is internationally good, and over 45 is high quality. Averaging over 50 is all time great stats, so getting close to that is telling of how good he actually was.

@Godder said in Ashes 2025/6:

For openers, averaging over 40 is internationally good, and over 45 is high quality. Averaging over 50 is all time great stats, so getting close to that is telling of how good he actually was.

Hayden is underrated compared to legends like Ponting, Warne, McGrath etc. Not to mention in any other era Langer would be the outstanding opener of his generation.

I’d go for 40 as high quality personally. ( also allowing for different eras, Greenidge and Haynes averaged 44 and 42 respectively and they're revered as the absolute best of their era ) Remember their chances for not outs are extremely low and they’re facing the oppositions best bowlers.

Seems ironic to say it bearing in mind what we've witnessed lately but I reckon no other country has produced as many outstanding openers as England. Hobbs, Sutcliffe, Hutton, Edrich, Boycott, Gooch, Vaughan ( when he opened ), Trescothick, Strauss, Cook…..Atherton was a better player than his stats indicate….Stewart did a job when required.

@MN5 said in Ashes 2025/6:

Khawaja also makes interesting points about copping it from the media for his Golfing last month.......I could be wrong but I'm sure people would have given him grief no matter what race/religion he was. Comes across very "woe is me"

Agreed. Similar to the English team in Noosa, anyone can generally do what they want so long as they stay injury free and win. Lose or get crocked, and then the microscope is on...

@Donsteppa said in Ashes 2025/6:

@MN5 said in Ashes 2025/6:

Khawaja also makes interesting points about copping it from the media for his Golfing last month.......I could be wrong but I'm sure people would have given him grief no matter what race/religion he was. Comes across very "woe is me"

Agreed. Similar to the English team in Noosa, anyone can generally do what the want so long as they stay injury free and win. Lose or get crocked, and then the microscope is on...

Khawaja predictably being ripped apart on social media for his comments.

I've got no doubt he experienced prejudice growing up but there is a time and place for gripes and I don't think this is it.

@MN5 said in Ashes 2025/6:

I've got no doubt he experienced prejudice growing up but there is a time and place for gripes and I don't think this is it.

100%

If you're out because of back spasms didn't be surprised if people look at your preparation. That's not racism. Racism will be through his career, but not convinced this is the place.

@MN5 said in Ashes 2025/6:

predictably

You spelled deservedly wrong.

very interesting article.

@MN5 an interesting article but only really shows one side of the story. Seam movement was definitely the theme for the series and the pitches assisted with that, but the batsmen played a part in their own demise even against the really good deliveries. Being able to play with soft hands so edges don't carry as often, and not chase the ball or play inside it when it moves is a lost art today. Kane is one of the few remaining players that is really good at it but he is aging, gone are the likes of Amla, Dravid etc who were experts at surviving a seaming ball. The young talent coming through today is mostly players that can hit the ball around in the shorter forms, and are too talented to overlook for tests but have not developed the skillset to survive tougher conditions.

Often these days tests that have batting friendly pitches end up in high scoring games with results as the run rate batsmen set today is so high. The flip side is we get 2 day tests and the groundsmen get roasted if the ball is doing a bit.

(Edit - thanks for sharing as it was good read)

@No-Quarter said in Ashes 2025/6:

@MN5 an interesting article but only really shows one side of the story. Seam movement was definitely the theme for the series and the pitches assisted with that, but the batsmen played a part in their own demise even against the really good deliveries. Being able to play with soft hands so edges don't carry as often, and not chase the ball or play inside it when it moves is a lost art today. Kane is one of the few remaining players that is really good at it but he is aging, gone are the likes of Amla, Dravid etc who were experts at surviving a seaming ball. The young talent coming through today is mostly players that can hit the ball around in the shorter forms, and are too talented to overlook for tests but have not developed the skillset to survive tougher conditions.

Often these days tests that have batting friendly pitches end up in high scoring games with results as the run rate batsmen set today is so high. The flip side is we get 2 day tests and the groundsmen get roasted if the ball is doing a bit.

Chanderpaul is another of that ilk although he batted a bit lower than them.

Yeah guys these days are a bit damned whether they do or don't.

I'm certainly glad some of the scoring rates of 20-25 years ago are a thing of the past but conversely so many guys seem to want to hit their way out of trouble rather than have the mindset of battling to survive, graft and rebuild. Hitting out worked for Brook in the last test I guess.

Bazball is a massive factor in this.

Bazball has played it's part with England who was stuck in the old mindset for a long time, but the Aussies are the ones that have led the way with aggressive test match batting. They did used to have the lineup to do it though...

Yeah Chanderpaul is another, I always really liked him as a player, got the most out of his ability. I also agree that it's not necessarily a bad thing, far more tests get results these days and they are generally more entertaining to watch, but we do have to accept 2 - 3 day tests sometimes if the weather conditions lead to the pitch doing more than the groundsmen want. 2 - 3 day tests are great fun in themselves, but also means we don't have nearly as much test cricket on!

@No-Quarter said in Ashes 2025/6:

Bazball has played it's part with England who was stuck in the old mindset for a long time, but the Aussies are the ones that have led the way with aggressive test match batting. They did used to have the lineup to do it though...

Yeah Chanderpaul is another, I always really liked him as a player, got the most out of his ability. I also agree that it's not necessarily a bad thing, far more tests get results these days and they are generally more entertaining to watch, but we do have to accept 2 - 3 day tests sometimes if the weather conditions lead to the pitch doing more than the groundsmen want. 2 - 3 day tests are great fun in themselves, but also means we don't have nearly as much test cricket on!

Yeah Oz kicked things off with Hayden, Ponting, GIlly ( especially ) capable of big ( and rapid ) scoring with others grafting somewhat in comparison around them.

England choose to bat

Australia
1 Jake Weatherald, 2 Travis Head, 3 Marnus Labuschagne, 4 Steven Smith (capt), 5 Usman Khawaja, 6 Alex Carey (wk), 7 Cameron Green, 8 Beau Webster, 9 Michael Neser, 10 Mitchell Starc, 11 Scott Boland

England
1 Zak Crawley, 2 Ben Duckett, 3 Jacob Bethell, 4 Joe Root, 5 Harry Brook, 6 Ben Stokes (capt), 7 Jamie Smith (wk), 8 Will Jacks, 9 Brydon Carse, 10 Matthew Potts, 11 Josh Tongue

Cam Green shouldn't buy a lotto ticket - he's now used up all his luck.

Interesting seeing Webster and Green shoehorned into the same team. With the series sewn up I guess there's room for experimentation.

Speaking of "all rounders" I see Jacob Bethel is listed as one in cricinfo ( 13 first class wickets at 70 )

They love throwing that term around these days.

Duckett out for 27 caught Carey bowled Starc.

....but at least he had a strike rate over 100%

#Bazball

The talk about bazball and shit pitches is rubbish.

Today the 3 English wickets have had fuck all to do with mindset, but techniques. Both openers played poorly to okay deliveries. Bad shape. No feet.
Bethel at least got an absolute peach.

Cam Green 0/45 off 6 so far. Not sure he's even making the 1990's Black Cap all rounders with that economy rate.

MCG was both shit batting (both sides) and an overly spicy pitch.

@Donsteppa said in Ashes 2025/6:

Cam Green 0/45 off 6 so far. Not sure he's even making the 1990's Black Cap all rounders with that economy rate.

MCG was both shit batting (both sides) and an overly spicy pitch.

Shades of Shane Thomson, Dipak Patel, Chris Harris and Justin Vaughan in his Ashes performances so far. Maybe this is the test he justifies that massive amount paid for him. Regardless of that a guy who has taken just over one wicket per test is not an all rounder.

Root and Brook looking to finally get that huge partnership guys of their abilities should have got when the series was still on the line. Both going great.

Not sure when Englands next test is but with their top three shitting the bed yet again I reckon these two need to move up a spot and they need to find someone to bat five. It's not often you see a guy as good as Brook there. Perhaps Stokes could fill the role or they could drop Bethell down a couple of spaces.

@MN5 said in Ashes 2025/6:

@Donsteppa said in Ashes 2025/6:

Cam Green 0/45 off 6 so far. Not sure he's even making the 1990's Black Cap all rounders with that economy rate.

MCG was both shit batting (both sides) and an overly spicy pitch.

Not sure when Englands next test is

It's against the BCs starting June 4th at Lord's.

@sparky said in Ashes 2025/6:

@MN5 said in Ashes 2025/6:

@Donsteppa said in Ashes 2025/6:

Cam Green 0/45 off 6 so far. Not sure he's even making the 1990's Black Cap all rounders with that economy rate.

MCG was both shit batting (both sides) and an overly spicy pitch.

Not sure when Englands next test is

It's against the BCs starting June 4th at Lord's.

Thanks fella, I'm sure McCullum reads the fern and will take my advice on board. He could start in the second innings as a matter of fact.

But yeah, Bazball aside the two best batsmen in the team generally bat three and four. Having one at five seems odd.

Covers are on the field, looks like a storm might be on the way which sux for England.

I think England would be better with Root at 3 and Brook at 4, but I don't think it's totally crazy to have your best batters at 4 and 5. Steve Waugh spent most of his career at 5.

@Cyclops said in Ashes 2025/6:

I think England would be better with Root at 3 and Brook at 4, but I don't think it's totally crazy to have your best batters at 4 and 5. Steve Waugh spent most of his career at 5.

He batted six a lot too as if to totally disprove my theory ( obviously liked his bro protecting him ) but in general the two best are 3/4.

Viv Richards shifted to 5/6 towards the end of his career as did Allan Border.

Yeah I think it's a point in Kane's favour when your compare him to Smith, Root and Kohli that he has almost always batted at 3. Much tougher spot to bat than 4. Kohli and Smith always had a world class 3 in front of them that kind of justified it, but no such excuses for Root.

England's problem is a shortage of quality batting options beyond Root and Brook.

The top four performers in the Top Division of county cricket last year were Dom Sibley, Haseeb Hameed, Adam Lyth and Alex Lees all of whom have Test averages in the 20s.

James Wharton and James Coles are probably the best two young uncapped England batsmen, but both average in the high 30s in first class cricket. Neither look like world-beaters.

@Cyclops said in Ashes 2025/6:

Yeah I think it's a point in Kane's favour when your compare him to Smith, Root and Kohli that he has almost always batted at 3. Much tougher spot to bat than 4. Kohli and Smith always had a world class 3 in front of them that kind of justified it, but no such excuses for Root.

Historically the best 3/4 at the same time would be Dravid and Tendulkar.

Easier for the little master to dominate with the wall guarding him for so long.

Green scything through the Poms with 0/57 off 8 before bad light and rain had the final say.

Brook finally comes to the party.

@Cyclops said in Ashes 2025/6:

Yeah I think it's a point in Kane's favour when your compare him to Smith, Root and Kohli that he has almost always batted at 3. Much tougher spot to bat than 4. Kohli and Smith always had a world class 3 in front of them that kind of justified it, but no such excuses for Root.

Would be an interesting stat to see how many times Kane had to come in within the first 5-10 overs of an innings. In effect being a 3rd opener
Of course that can happen for any top order batsman even at 4 or 5 but certainly more common when you only ever bat at 3.

@Donsteppa said in Ashes 2025/6:

Green

Robbed by the weather

They might have lost $10 million in Melbourne. But no one in Australia has spent a dime on their DRS technology.

@Donsteppa said in Ashes 2025/6:

They might have lost $10 million in Melbourne. But no one in Australia has spent a dime on their DRS technology.

Surprised they don’t have hot spot or something similar

@Donsteppa said in Ashes 2025/6:

They might have lost $10 million in Melbourne. But no one in Australia has spent a dime on their DRS technology.

I haven't seen it yet but I am surprised a small noise a frame after it passed the bat was enough to overturn the decision. Sounds like it should have stayed with the on field call, the same way they do if not enough of the ball is hitting the stumps for LBW reviews. On the flipside if it was given out it should have stayed out. Snicko is not accurate enough to overturn 50/50 calls.

England fucking suck at catching, a strong argument to be made that their poor catching has cost them the Ashes

Head passes 500 runs for the series. He, Starc and Carey have been the difference.

Earlier Joe Root got his second Test century in Australia. He's now within 2000 runs of Sachin Tendulkar's Test record and if he stays fit and in form for another four years, he'll probably have the most Test runs ever.

@mariner4life said in Ashes 2025/6:

Head passes 500 runs for the series. He, Starc and Carey have been the difference.

Yeah was thinking that before stumps
Best 3 in this series have been Starc, Head and Carey
With honourable mentions to Boland and Nesser.
Not much else from the Aussies bar excellent all round fielding and catching.

For the Poms I’d only rate Root and the Kiwi ginger to consistently stand out
Maybe Duckets drinking too