England v All Blacks

@nonpartizan said in England Vs All Blacks:

@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:

@taniwharugby said in England Vs All Blacks:

@ACT-Crusader plus the software they have access to enables them to watch every lineout if they choose, look for patterns, then watch every ruck, how they respond in what part of the field.

Watching games in thier entirety would be rare these days I expect.

I'd really hope that isn't the case. The game has ebb and flow and every contest and every individual action by an opponent takes part within a context that matters.

Yeah, to be honest, I find when I watch highlights (even those 20 minutes long ones) I don't get much out of it. In fact I'd go as far as saying I have to see the match 2-3 times before I feel like I really have a very solid understanding of how the game played out.

Id actually love to know how much rugby professional.coaches watch in general. I would think aside from their upcoming opponents it would behoove them to watch at least 3-4 other matches a week just to see how teams are playing and get an idea of maybe upcoming opponents a month ahead of time. By that I'm talking about head coach not just some underling who is tasked with editing clips and being the tech whiz.

@nonpartizan said in England Vs All Blacks:

@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:

@taniwharugby said in England Vs All Blacks:

@ACT-Crusader plus the software they have access to enables them to watch every lineout if they choose, look for patterns, then watch every ruck, how they respond in what part of the field.

Watching games in thier entirety would be rare these days I expect.

I'd really hope that isn't the case. The game has ebb and flow and every contest and every individual action by an opponent takes part within a context that matters.

Yeah, to be honest, I find when I watch highlights (even those 20 minutes long ones) I don't get much out of it. In fact I'd go as far as saying I have to see the match 2-3 times before I feel like I really have a very solid understanding of how the game played out.

Id actually love to know how much rugby professional.coaches watch in general. I would think aside from their upcoming opponents it would behoove them to watch at least 3-4 other matches a week just to see how teams are playing and get an idea of maybe upcoming opponents a month ahead of time. By that I'm talking about head coach not just some underling who is tasked with editing clips and being the tech whiz.

It's also why selectors go and sit in the stands and watch matches live. Not saying Razor should be doing that, but there's obviously a limit to how much you can learn from video clipped up by an analyst. But perhaps that is the point when you have limited time between matches. You would hope what they're really looking for are any changes to what they normally do - because you'd expect they already have a decent idea about how England have been playing this year.

@booboo said in England Vs All Blacks:

But given unavailability I'm on the Parker bandwagon (still think Finau has more potential).

If you are on the Parker bandwagon can you please pump the tyres? I was on the bandwagon initially but I suspect the slow jolts have pushed me off.

Interesting discussion point from Razor in the presser about kicking - that there’s more aerial contests and a different type of kicking in Test Matches than in SR.

Now, I’m pretty sure I watched the SR final this year and….

@Victor-Meldrew said in England Vs All Blacks:

@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:

And Eddie Jones outsmarted us that night

I disagree. We were so fucking clueless the bloke running the West Looe Junior XV would have outsmarted us that night.

You’re doing a disservice to the poms. They were just too good. The ABs kept expecting things to go their way and realized too late that they were going to have to earn it. It felt like they never really were in it.

@W32 Eddie didn’t have to outsmart anyone, because Hansen outsmarted himself.

England team announced. Advantage NZ.

England: Steward; Roebuck, Lawrence, Dingwall, Feyi-Waboso; Ford, Mitchell; Baxter, George, Heyes, Itoje, Coles, Pepper, Underhill, Earl
Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Stuart, Cunningham-South, T Curry, Pollock, Spencer, M Smith

Probably the lightest front row in a decade, plus the openside will take a decade to get around the field.

@game_film said in England Vs All Blacks:

Interesting discussion point from Razor in the presser about kicking - that there’s more aerial contests and a different type of kicking in Test Matches than in SR.

Now, I’m pretty sure I watched the SR final this year and….

The kicking definitely favours the attacking team since the escort rules changed.

The defending team endeavours to catch the ball rather than bat it back towards their own try line (unless you're Sevu Reece against Argentina), whereas the attacking team can embrace the chaos more by just getting an arm in there. Regaining possession, batting it back, a defending knock on or sloppy ball for opposition their own 22 are all net gains for the attacking team.

So I do think there is a bit more nuance to the aerial woes other than "our lads cant catch a cold".

@Catogrande said in England Vs All Blacks:

England team announced. Advantage NZ.

England: Steward; Roebuck, Lawrence, Dingwall, Feyi-Waboso; Ford, Mitchell; Baxter, George, Heyes, Itoje, Coles, Pepper, Underhill, Earl
Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Stuart, Cunningham-South, T Curry, Pollock, Spencer, M Smith

Advantage NZ? Why?
I'm not super familiar with all the English players.

@W32 said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Victor-Meldrew said in England Vs All Blacks:

@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:

And Eddie Jones outsmarted us that night

I disagree. We were so fucking clueless the bloke running the West Looe Junior XV would have outsmarted us that night.

You’re doing a disservice to the poms. They were just too good. The ABs kept expecting things to go their way and realized too late that they were going to have to earn it. It felt like they never really were in it.

Oh, don't get me wrong, England absolutely way better than us that day.

But that was one of the most clueless AB performances I've seen,

@Darren said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Catogrande said in England Vs All Blacks:

England team announced. Advantage NZ.

England: Steward; Roebuck, Lawrence, Dingwall, Feyi-Waboso; Ford, Mitchell; Baxter, George, Heyes, Itoje, Coles, Pepper, Underhill, Earl
Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Stuart, Cunningham-South, T Curry, Pollock, Spencer, M Smith

Advantage NZ? Why?
I'm not super familiar with all the English players.

I'm probably being a little over pessimistic to be honest but...

Steward is usually a rock under the high ball but ponderous in defence and has poor one on one tackling against strike runners. Ford blows hot and cold in running the backline under pressure and is a turnstile in defence. Only two line out options in the starting XV. No bench cover for 11-14.

All of these are known-knowns and pretty easy to build a strategy for:

Run at Steward
Run at Ford
Pressurise Ford
Throw to the back of the line out.
Hope for an injury (obviously not a bad one, that would be unsportsmanlike like) to anyone in the three-quarters.

How to change that dynamic?

Start Curry at 6
Start F Smith at 10, leaving out Ford.
Leave Pollock off the bench
Add Arundell to the bench.

@Bones said in England Vs All Blacks:

Probably the lightest front row in a decade, plus the openside will take a decade to get around the field.

Stevie B is saving the big boys for the Pom Squad.

@pakman said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Bones said in England Vs All Blacks:

Probably the lightest front row in a decade, plus the openside will take a decade to get around the field.

Stevie B is saving the big boys for the Pom Squad.

Please, please, please, stop this sort of bollocks. This is how "Bazball" came about.

@pakman said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Bones said in England Vs All Blacks:

Probably the lightest front row in a decade, plus the openside will take a decade to get around the field.

Stevie B is saving the big boys for the Pom Squad.

At least he got them in the right order.

Pom squad.

Pom squad.

@Victor-Meldrew been a few of them in recent years, where opposition have been good but we have been beyond poor...standouts: 2nd half of test 2 v Ireland a few years back, 2nd half v SA this year....

@Bones said in England Vs All Blacks:

@pakman said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Bones said in England Vs All Blacks:

Probably the lightest front row in a decade, plus the openside will take a decade to get around the field.

Stevie B is saving the big boys for the Pom Squad.

At least he got them in the right order.

Pom squad.

Pom squad.

Bomb Squad? Pom Squad? If we are going to have this shit, then let's have a name for the ABs.

The Bench Bro's sounds good....

Pine Posse

Weaknesses of that England team.

Backs

Freddie Steward (15)
• Can be exposed in wide defensive channels
• Predictable kicking game (often deep and central).
• Limited creativity as a playmaker — doesn’t often link attacks.

Tom Roebuck (14)
• Test inexperience; decision-making under pressure still developing.
• Quick, but his defensive positioning may be a problem.

Ollie Lawrence (13)
• Direct but sometimes one-dimensional in attack.
• Can overcommit in defence and leave space outside.
• Distribution and offloading skills not natural parts of his game.

Fraser Dingwall (12)
• Physically lighter than many Test 12s — can be bullied in contact.
• Limited pace and kicking threat reduce tactical variation.
• Struggles to impose himself when the game gets loose or fast.

Immanuel Feyi-Waboso (11)
• Still learning positional nuances — especially in backfield coverage.
• Can over-chase defensively and miss inside threats.
• Occasionally isolated after line breaks; support play developing.

George Ford (10)
• Defensive liability versus bigger carriers.
• Effectiveness drops when forwards lose collisions.
• Can over-control tempo and blunt England’s attack when momentum dips.

Alex Mitchell (9)
• Box kicking remains inconsistent.
• Defence around fringes can be exploited by strong pick-and-go sides.
• Sometimes rushes play when under scoreboard pressure.

Forwards

Fin Baxter (1)
• Limited international scrummaging experience.
• Can struggle against heavy, technical tightheads.
• Physicality at ruck and maul still developing.

Jamie George (2)
• Lineout throwing wobbles occasionally under stress.
• Mobility declining; not as dynamic around the park as before.
• Fades in impact during long defensive phases.

Dan Heyes (3)
• Scrummaging inconsistent versus elite looseheads.
• Doesn’t offer much in open play; carrying impact low.
• Can be slow to realign defensively.

Maro Itoje (4)
• Discipline — prone to giving away breakdown penalties.
• Tries to do too much at times, reducing efficiency.
• Lineout effectiveness has been patchy since 2021.

Alex Coles (5)
• Inexperienced at Test level.
• Still learning physical edge needed for top-tier packs.
• Lineout timing and lifting coordination under pressure developing.

Guy Pepper (6 / 7)
• Tremendous energy but can be overzealous at breakdown — penalty risk.
• Decision-making under fatigue still maturing; sometimes chases lost causes.
• Carrying game limited — not a natural ball-carrier or line-breaker.
• In defence, can shoot out of line too early and leave gaps.

Sam Underhill (7)
• History of injuries limits minutes and consistency.
• Offers little in attack beyond hard carries.
• Occasionally overcompetes at breakdown and concedes pens.

Ben Earl (8)
• Not the heaviest No.8 — can be dominated by massive packs.
• Sometimes takes unnecessary risks in attack.
• Defensive positioning at scrum and kick transitions inconsistent.

"The Pom and One Kiwi Pom Squad"

Luke Cowan-Dickie (2) – Dynamic but lineout throw still unreliable; durability concerns.

Ellis Genge (1) – Can lose discipline; scrummaging sometimes unstable when chasing dominance.

Will Stuart (3) – Reliable scrum anchor but lacks mobility.

Chandler Cunningham-South (6/8) – Explosive athlete but raw tactically; defensive reads need polish.

Tom Curry (7/8) – Returning from long injury layoff; timing at breakdown and discipline rusty. But I rate really rate.

Henry Pollock (7)
• Very promising but extremely inexperienced at senior level.
• Can be outmuscled physically by Test-standard forwards.
• Tends to overcommit at ruck, leaving defensive gaps.
• Work rate excellent, but still learning when to hold shape instead of chasing every contest.

Ben Spencer (9) – Reliable but lacks tempo and unpredictability compared to Mitchell.

Marcus Smith (10/15) Defence remains a bit dodgy; can struggle to impose structure off slow ball.

No specialist lock, midfield or wing cover. It's an odd bench.

@MiketheSnow said in England Vs All Blacks:

Pine Posse

Yeah if we're talking NZ, it can't be a positive name eh, got to be some kind of gang/posse/cabal.

@Bones said in England Vs All Blacks:

@MiketheSnow said in England Vs All Blacks:

Pine Posse

Yeah if we're talking NZ, it can't be a positive name eh, got to be some kind of gang/posse/cabal.

Black Bangers might be considered a bit racist so best to scratch that option.

Strengths of that England team

It has won nine on the bounce and has lots of potential. It plays with high work rate, smart structure, astute kicking and growing attacking variety.

1. Defensive Intensity and Breakdown Pressure

With Underhill, Earl, Pepper, Curry, Pollock and Itoje (so many pests who will be looking for turnovers) England have one of the most disruptive defensive packs in world rugby.

Relentless line speed and chop tackling from their defence will also create turnover opportunities.

2. Aerial and Territorial Control

Steward, Ford, and Mitchell give England a reliable kick-chase and territorial base.

Roebuck and Feyi-Waboso are good at the chase and in the air.

3. Leadership and Experience

George, Itoje, Ford, and Steward form a calm, experienced axis that anchors younger players.

Composure under pressure has improved dramatically since 2023.

4. Set-Piece Reliability

Scrum looks solid with Baxter-George-Heyes; lineout options in Itoje, Coles, Earl.

Ford is a solid goalkicker.

England's work on kickoffs is excellent.

5. Versatility in the Back Row

Earl, Underhill, and Pepper/Curry offer complementary styles — mobility, power, and work rate.

Cunningham-South and Pollock add bench dynamism.

Three back row players on the bench is a bold call.

6. Counterattack Potential

Feyi-Waboso, Earl and Pollock in broken play are lethal.

Ford and Mitchell can quickly switch to attacking width when turnover ball arises.

7. Emerging Depth and Balance

Blend of young talent (Baxter, Pepper, Pollock, Feyi-Waboso) with seasoned Test heads (George, Itoje, Curry, Ford)

Strong “finishers” bench — Smith, Genge, Curry, Pollock, Cunningham-South.

Thank you Catogrande and Sparky for the detail about the English players. I know most of the regular players by reputation but appreciate getting to know more about the newer squad members.

Is it fair to say Borthwick has deliberately packed the bench with typical starters / stronger players – specifically front row and Curry?

@JA said in England Vs All Blacks:

Thank you Catogrande and Sparky for the detail about the English players. I know most of the regular players by reputation but appreciate getting to know more about the newer squad members.

Is it fair to say Borthwick has deliberately packed the bench with typical starters / stronger players – specifically front row and Curry?

It certainly looks that way. It could easlly be said that the bench options at forward are stronger than the starters and in the last two games they have brought a lot of power and dynamism to finish the game off. The counter to that though is that we were still in the lead in both instances. Such a strategy may not work if you're 20 points down when all your best players come on. A bit like stacking the back end of your singles at the Ryder Cup to finish the match off only to find you've already lost it.

@Bones said in England Vs All Blacks:

@MiketheSnow said in England Vs All Blacks:

Pine Posse

Yeah if we're talking NZ, it can't be a positive name eh, got to be some kind of gang/posse/cabal.

I think Black Power's taken.

Black Bomb Cohort

@Bones said in England Vs All Blacks:

Black Bomb Cohort

Gastro sufferers?

While we're on nicknames, that Netflix show "Baby Reindeer", has had me calling the Spring Boks that ever since.

Seems annoy Saffa mates, so I will continue with it.

@Snowy said in England Vs All Blacks:

While we're on nicknames, that Netflix show "Baby Reindeer", has had me calling the Spring Boks that ever since.

Seems annoy Saffa mates, so I will continue with it.

Note to self: never watch that Netflix show Baby Reindeer

@W32 said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Snowy said in England Vs All Blacks:

While we're on nicknames, that Netflix show "Baby Reindeer", has had me calling the Spring Boks that ever since.

Seems annoy Saffa mates, so I will continue with it.

Note to self: never watch that Netflix show Baby Reindeer

That is actually very good advice.

Imagine if an injury occurs to Itoje or Coles. Who's gonna play lock ? Cunningham-South ? This English pack is shorter than the ABs'.

@W32 said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Bones said in England Vs All Blacks:

Black Bomb Cohort

Gastro sufferers?

Blacked?

The Heimlich Manuever. Prevents choking

@Boourns said in England Vs All Blacks:

@W32 said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Bones said in England Vs All Blacks:

Black Bomb Cohort

Gastro sufferers?

Blacked?

Sorry my twisted sense of humor kicked in. Black bomb cohort sounds like a group of people suffering from irritable bowl syndrome.

Sponsored by Depends

Not sure if this has been posted but Caleb Tangitau has joined the ABs squad in London.

@Canes4life said in England Vs All Blacks:

Not sure if this has been posted but Caleb Tangitau has joined the ABs squad in London.

That is absurd to me. He has gaping holes in his game he needs to address.

@Canes4life it has, along with Beehre & CLW given Finau & Jacobsen heading home (family illness and concussion respectively)

@antipodean said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Canes4life said in England Vs All Blacks:

Not sure if this has been posted but Caleb Tangitau has joined the ABs squad in London.

That is absurd to me. He has gaping holes in his game he needs to address.

So does Reece, so does Carter. So did NMS. So did Jonah.
And it's just for training.

@taniwharugby said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Canes4life it has, along with Beehre & CLW given Finau & Jacobsen heading home (family illness and concussion respectively)

Finau's family are probably sick of waiting for him to get a run.

@antipodean said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Canes4life said in England Vs All Blacks:

Not sure if this has been posted but Caleb Tangitau has joined the ABs squad in London.

That is absurd to me. He has gaping holes in his game he needs to address.

I think it's tough to judge him on the shitshow that was the Auckland NPC season where nearly everyone looked bad - if he was on the wing for Otago in the NPC as a comparison....

@antipodean attack wise Tangitau is a weapon 14 tries in 15 games in 2025 and let's not forget before his groin injury in super this year he had gained more metres in play than international outsides Will Jordan, Tom Wright, Sevu Reece, Caleb Clarke, Harry Potter & Max Jorgensen. there's only been 1 specific instance where I vividly remember him being well beaten in the air by the big Turbos winger Filimone. any and all deficiencies can be worked on by the guidance of Robertson & Ellison