@Bones said in England Vs All Blacks:
@pakman said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Bones said in England Vs All Blacks:
Probably the lightest front row in a decade, plus the openside will take a decade to get around the field.
Stevie B is saving the big boys for the Pom Squad.
At least he got them in the right order.
Pom squad.
Pom squad.
Bomb Squad? Pom Squad? If we are going to have this shit, then let's have a name for the ABs.
The Bench Bro's sounds good....
Weaknesses of that England team.
Backs
Freddie Steward (15)
• Can be exposed in wide defensive channels
• Predictable kicking game (often deep and central).
• Limited creativity as a playmaker — doesn’t often link attacks.
Tom Roebuck (14)
• Test inexperience; decision-making under pressure still developing.
• Quick, but his defensive positioning may be a problem.
Ollie Lawrence (13)
• Direct but sometimes one-dimensional in attack.
• Can overcommit in defence and leave space outside.
• Distribution and offloading skills not natural parts of his game.
Fraser Dingwall (12)
• Physically lighter than many Test 12s — can be bullied in contact.
• Limited pace and kicking threat reduce tactical variation.
• Struggles to impose himself when the game gets loose or fast.
Immanuel Feyi-Waboso (11)
• Still learning positional nuances — especially in backfield coverage.
• Can over-chase defensively and miss inside threats.
• Occasionally isolated after line breaks; support play developing.
George Ford (10)
• Defensive liability versus bigger carriers.
• Effectiveness drops when forwards lose collisions.
• Can over-control tempo and blunt England’s attack when momentum dips.
Alex Mitchell (9)
• Box kicking remains inconsistent.
• Defence around fringes can be exploited by strong pick-and-go sides.
• Sometimes rushes play when under scoreboard pressure.
Forwards
Fin Baxter (1)
• Limited international scrummaging experience.
• Can struggle against heavy, technical tightheads.
• Physicality at ruck and maul still developing.
Jamie George (2)
• Lineout throwing wobbles occasionally under stress.
• Mobility declining; not as dynamic around the park as before.
• Fades in impact during long defensive phases.
Dan Heyes (3)
• Scrummaging inconsistent versus elite looseheads.
• Doesn’t offer much in open play; carrying impact low.
• Can be slow to realign defensively.
Maro Itoje (4)
• Discipline — prone to giving away breakdown penalties.
• Tries to do too much at times, reducing efficiency.
• Lineout effectiveness has been patchy since 2021.
Alex Coles (5)
• Inexperienced at Test level.
• Still learning physical edge needed for top-tier packs.
• Lineout timing and lifting coordination under pressure developing.
Guy Pepper (6 / 7)
• Tremendous energy but can be overzealous at breakdown — penalty risk.
• Decision-making under fatigue still maturing; sometimes chases lost causes.
• Carrying game limited — not a natural ball-carrier or line-breaker.
• In defence, can shoot out of line too early and leave gaps.
Sam Underhill (7)
• History of injuries limits minutes and consistency.
• Offers little in attack beyond hard carries.
• Occasionally overcompetes at breakdown and concedes pens.
Ben Earl (8)
• Not the heaviest No.8 — can be dominated by massive packs.
• Sometimes takes unnecessary risks in attack.
• Defensive positioning at scrum and kick transitions inconsistent.
"The Pom and One Kiwi Pom Squad"
Luke Cowan-Dickie (2) – Dynamic but lineout throw still unreliable; durability concerns.
Ellis Genge (1) – Can lose discipline; scrummaging sometimes unstable when chasing dominance.
Will Stuart (3) – Reliable scrum anchor but lacks mobility.
Chandler Cunningham-South (6/8) – Explosive athlete but raw tactically; defensive reads need polish.
Tom Curry (7/8) – Returning from long injury layoff; timing at breakdown and discipline rusty. But I rate really rate.
Henry Pollock (7)
• Very promising but extremely inexperienced at senior level.
• Can be outmuscled physically by Test-standard forwards.
• Tends to overcommit at ruck, leaving defensive gaps.
• Work rate excellent, but still learning when to hold shape instead of chasing every contest.
Ben Spencer (9) – Reliable but lacks tempo and unpredictability compared to Mitchell.
Marcus Smith (10/15) Defence remains a bit dodgy; can struggle to impose structure off slow ball.
No specialist lock, midfield or wing cover. It's an odd bench.
@MiketheSnow said in England Vs All Blacks:
Pine Posse
Yeah if we're talking NZ, it can't be a positive name eh, got to be some kind of gang/posse/cabal.
@Bones said in England Vs All Blacks:
@MiketheSnow said in England Vs All Blacks:
Pine Posse
Yeah if we're talking NZ, it can't be a positive name eh, got to be some kind of gang/posse/cabal.
Black Bangers might be considered a bit racist so best to scratch that option.
Strengths of that England team
It has won nine on the bounce and has lots of potential. It plays with high work rate, smart structure, astute kicking and growing attacking variety.
With Underhill, Earl, Pepper, Curry, Pollock and Itoje (so many pests who will be looking for turnovers) England have one of the most disruptive defensive packs in world rugby.
Relentless line speed and chop tackling from their defence will also create turnover opportunities.
Steward, Ford, and Mitchell give England a reliable kick-chase and territorial base.
Roebuck and Feyi-Waboso are good at the chase and in the air.
George, Itoje, Ford, and Steward form a calm, experienced axis that anchors younger players.
Composure under pressure has improved dramatically since 2023.
Scrum looks solid with Baxter-George-Heyes; lineout options in Itoje, Coles, Earl.
Ford is a solid goalkicker.
England's work on kickoffs is excellent.
Earl, Underhill, and Pepper/Curry offer complementary styles — mobility, power, and work rate.
Cunningham-South and Pollock add bench dynamism.
Three back row players on the bench is a bold call.
Feyi-Waboso, Earl and Pollock in broken play are lethal.
Ford and Mitchell can quickly switch to attacking width when turnover ball arises.
Blend of young talent (Baxter, Pepper, Pollock, Feyi-Waboso) with seasoned Test heads (George, Itoje, Curry, Ford)
Strong “finishers” bench — Smith, Genge, Curry, Pollock, Cunningham-South.
Thank you Catogrande and Sparky for the detail about the English players. I know most of the regular players by reputation but appreciate getting to know more about the newer squad members.
Is it fair to say Borthwick has deliberately packed the bench with typical starters / stronger players – specifically front row and Curry?
@JA said in England Vs All Blacks:
Thank you Catogrande and Sparky for the detail about the English players. I know most of the regular players by reputation but appreciate getting to know more about the newer squad members.
Is it fair to say Borthwick has deliberately packed the bench with typical starters / stronger players – specifically front row and Curry?
It certainly looks that way. It could easlly be said that the bench options at forward are stronger than the starters and in the last two games they have brought a lot of power and dynamism to finish the game off. The counter to that though is that we were still in the lead in both instances. Such a strategy may not work if you're 20 points down when all your best players come on. A bit like stacking the back end of your singles at the Ryder Cup to finish the match off only to find you've already lost it.
@Bones said in England Vs All Blacks:
@MiketheSnow said in England Vs All Blacks:
Pine Posse
Yeah if we're talking NZ, it can't be a positive name eh, got to be some kind of gang/posse/cabal.
I think Black Power's taken.
While we're on nicknames, that Netflix show "Baby Reindeer", has had me calling the Spring Boks that ever since.
Seems annoy Saffa mates, so I will continue with it.
@Snowy said in England Vs All Blacks:
While we're on nicknames, that Netflix show "Baby Reindeer", has had me calling the Spring Boks that ever since.
Seems annoy Saffa mates, so I will continue with it.
Note to self: never watch that Netflix show Baby Reindeer
@W32 said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Snowy said in England Vs All Blacks:
While we're on nicknames, that Netflix show "Baby Reindeer", has had me calling the Spring Boks that ever since.
Seems annoy Saffa mates, so I will continue with it.
Note to self: never watch that Netflix show Baby Reindeer
That is actually very good advice.
@W32 said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Bones said in England Vs All Blacks:
Black Bomb Cohort
Gastro sufferers?
Blacked?
@Boourns said in England Vs All Blacks:
@W32 said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Bones said in England Vs All Blacks:
Black Bomb Cohort
Gastro sufferers?
Blacked?
Sorry my twisted sense of humor kicked in. Black bomb cohort sounds like a group of people suffering from irritable bowl syndrome.
Sponsored by Depends
@Canes4life said in England Vs All Blacks:
Not sure if this has been posted but Caleb Tangitau has joined the ABs squad in London.
That is absurd to me. He has gaping holes in his game he needs to address.
@Canes4life it has, along with Beehre & CLW given Finau & Jacobsen heading home (family illness and concussion respectively)
@antipodean said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Canes4life said in England Vs All Blacks:
Not sure if this has been posted but Caleb Tangitau has joined the ABs squad in London.
That is absurd to me. He has gaping holes in his game he needs to address.
So does Reece, so does Carter. So did NMS. So did Jonah.
And it's just for training.
@taniwharugby said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Canes4life it has, along with Beehre & CLW given Finau & Jacobsen heading home (family illness and concussion respectively)
Finau's family are probably sick of waiting for him to get a run.
@antipodean said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Canes4life said in England Vs All Blacks:
Not sure if this has been posted but Caleb Tangitau has joined the ABs squad in London.
That is absurd to me. He has gaping holes in his game he needs to address.
I think it's tough to judge him on the shitshow that was the Auckland NPC season where nearly everyone looked bad - if he was on the wing for Otago in the NPC as a comparison....
@antipodean attack wise Tangitau is a weapon 14 tries in 15 games in 2025 and let's not forget before his groin injury in super this year he had gained more metres in play than international outsides Will Jordan, Tom Wright, Sevu Reece, Caleb Clarke, Harry Potter & Max Jorgensen. there's only been 1 specific instance where I vividly remember him being well beaten in the air by the big Turbos winger Filimone. any and all deficiencies can be worked on by the guidance of Robertson & Ellison
@Grooter said in England Vs All Blacks:
any and all deficiencies can be worked on by the guidance of Robertson & Ellison
@antipodean This All Blacks team is screaming for some X-Factor on the wing.
I wouldn’t describe Clarke nor Carter as X-Factor types. Fainga’anuku is a good ball runner but doesn’t have that top end speed Tangitau has.
@DaGrubster said in England Vs All Blacks:
CLW, Josh Beehre and Caleb Tangitau added to the squad as training cover.
Finau and Jacobsen are heading home
Clarke, Jordan, Tangitau - the back 3 for 2027 World Cup?
@restofit said in England Vs All Blacks:
@DaGrubster said in England Vs All Blacks:
CLW, Josh Beehre and Caleb Tangitau added to the squad as training cover.
Finau and Jacobsen are heading home
Clarke, Jordan, Tangitau - the back 3 for 2027 World Cup?
It sounds exciting but I honestly don't see us winning an RWC with Jordan at 15.
We need someone at fullback with a better aerial game, a better boot, and a better play making ability.
@brodean said in England Vs All Blacks:
@restofit said in England Vs All Blacks:
@DaGrubster said in England Vs All Blacks:
CLW, Josh Beehre and Caleb Tangitau added to the squad as training cover.
Finau and Jacobsen are heading home
Clarke, Jordan, Tangitau - the back 3 for 2027 World Cup?
It sounds exciting but I honestly don't see us winning an RWC with Jordan at 15.
We need someone at fullback with a better aerial game, a better boot, and a better play making ability.
That doesn't have standard clearing kicks on regulation plays go well over his head.
@brodean said in England Vs All Blacks:
@restofit said in England Vs All Blacks:
@DaGrubster said in England Vs All Blacks:
CLW, Josh Beehre and Caleb Tangitau added to the squad as training cover.
Finau and Jacobsen are heading home
Clarke, Jordan, Tangitau - the back 3 for 2027 World Cup?
It sounds exciting but I honestly don't see us winning an RWC with Jordan at 15.
We need someone at fullback with a better aerial game, a better boot, and a better play making ability.
Lol, the WC isn't going to be won or lost depending on whether Jordan plays 15 or 14 for god's sake.
@restofit said in England Vs All Blacks:
@brodean said in England Vs All Blacks:
@restofit said in England Vs All Blacks:
@DaGrubster said in England Vs All Blacks:
CLW, Josh Beehre and Caleb Tangitau added to the squad as training cover.
Finau and Jacobsen are heading home
Clarke, Jordan, Tangitau - the back 3 for 2027 World Cup?
It sounds exciting but I honestly don't see us winning an RWC with Jordan at 15.
We need someone at fullback with a better aerial game, a better boot, and a better play making ability.
Lol, the WC isn't going to be won or lost depending on whether Jordan plays 15 or 14 for god's sake.
Of course there are other factors but who plays at fullback is still a factor.
It’s so frustrating seeing us piss around picking first choice players on the bench on purpose, front row is insane. Also disappointed we’re going with Ford at 10 instead of investing in Smith (either frankly). Steward isn’t good enough.
The sad thing for me is that I think this AB side is beatable - much more so than it’s felt in the past, and yet we are fiddling around with things we have control over that will potentially cost us the game.
Borthwick is such a lump
@frugby said in England Vs All Blacks:
This All Blacks team is screaming for some X-Factor on the wing.
For me that's Will Jordan. He really doesn't have the skills to be a Test 15.
@Victor-Meldrew said in England Vs All Blacks:
@frugby said in England Vs All Blacks:
This All Blacks team is screaming for some X-Factor on the wing.
For me that's Will Jordan. He really doesn't have the skills to be a Test 15.
Who does? I’m not convinced by Love (I think he is a 10). Who are the alternatives? NZ are crying out for the new Israel Dagg to make his appearance.
@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:
@antipodean said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Canes4life said in England Vs All Blacks:
Not sure if this has been posted but Caleb Tangitau has joined the ABs squad in London.
That is absurd to me. He has gaping holes in his game he needs to address.
So does Reece, so does Carter. So did NMS. So did Jonah.
And it's just for training.
Fortunately we’ve had the flawless Ralph, Hamilton and Bridge over the years to balance out those gaping holes….
@stodders said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Victor-Meldrew said in England Vs All Blacks:
@frugby said in England Vs All Blacks:
This All Blacks team is screaming for some X-Factor on the wing.
For me that's Will Jordan. He really doesn't have the skills to be a Test 15.
Who does? I’m not convinced by Love (I think he is a 10). Who are the alternatives? NZ are crying out for the new Israel Dagg to make his appearance.
If you’re feeling sentimental and bored, rewatch the first 2017 lions test again. Dagg was genuinely unreal that game with his kicking and ability to tidy up shit ball. Amazing to think we had Mils, Dagg, Smith consecutively
@jimmyb said in England Vs All Blacks:
@stodders said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Victor-Meldrew said in England Vs All Blacks:
@frugby said in England Vs All Blacks:
This All Blacks team is screaming for some X-Factor on the wing.
For me that's Will Jordan. He really doesn't have the skills to be a Test 15.
Who does? I’m not convinced by Love (I think he is a 10). Who are the alternatives? NZ are crying out for the new Israel Dagg to make his appearance.
If you’re feeling sentimental and bored, rewatch the first 2017 lions test again. Dagg was genuinely unreal that game with his kicking and ability to tidy up shit ball. Amazing to think we had Mils, Dagg, Smith consecutively
We've had a real inability to play out of our own half, particularly after receiving kick offs, since Dagg finished.
@Dodge said in England Vs All Blacks:
It’s so frustrating seeing us piss around picking first choice players on the bench on purpose, front row is insane. Also disappointed we’re going with Ford at 10 instead of investing in Smith (either frankly). Steward isn’t good enough.
The sad thing for me is that I think this AB side is beatable - much more so than it’s felt in the past, and yet we are fiddling around with things we have control over that will potentially cost us the game.
Borthwick is such a lump
It’s so frustrating seeing us piss around picking first choice players on the bench on purpose. The back row is insane. Disappointed we’re going with BB at 10 instead of investing in DMac
The sad thing for me is that I think this England side is beatable - much more so than it’s felt in the past, and yet we are fiddling around with things we have control over that will potentially cost us the game.
Razor is such a lump
