England v All Blacks

KiwiMurph

@booboo said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Gunner said in England Vs All Blacks:

And why the fuck are we taking taps from penalties 40m out?

Because our hooker was off and we hadn't been able to replace him as there hadn't been a scrum.

Again, why we hadn't considered the possibility of this and taught Ardie or Lakai to throw to some sort of option is also on the coaching staff.

They could have brought Samisoni on at the lineout - it just means he would have stayed on the rest of the game

Which begs the question why is Razor so afraid to bring Samisoni on early (and not that early - it was the second half after all)

Razor has a real history of playing certain players into the ground for both the Crusaders and the ABs.

They were trying to be too cute and paid the price.

Bovidae

I'll read through the thread soon but did mention previously that sooner or later the ABs would be too far behind for the impact players to have a positive effect on the outcome of the game. It worked against Ireland and then Scotland but that's no plan for success.

There are no excuses for Robertson to continue starting BB from here on. Again, injury might end up being the best selector, so let's see DMac at 10 and Love at 15 against Wales.

No Quarter

@Dodge said in England Vs All Blacks:

@No-Quarter said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Dodge can you please go and read my whole post before commenting

I read the whole post. I don’t agree with you. Cards are an important part of stopping cheating pricks being cheating pricks. Just like every other decision they’re sometimes not right.

If you think the cards ruined this game then I might respectfully suggest that you’re just a bitter AB fan dreaming of the old days.

Not responding to obvious bait. If you won't engage in a serious discussion then I won't either.

Dodge

@Jet said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Dodge said in England Vs All Blacks:

It didn’t ruin the game is my point. Don’t do it. Sometimes the ref will ping you. (Same goes for Earl).

He didnt do anything. Watch it in full speed. It wasn't even in our own 22.

If thats a yellow you may turn it into ice hockey and have a revolving door of sin bins.

We are not far off as it is.

I didn’t say it was yellow, I said the yellow wasn’t definitive and it didn’t ruin the game.

canefan

@Dodge said in England Vs All Blacks:

It didn’t ruin the game is my point. Don’t do it. Sometimes the ref will ping you. (Same goes for Earl).

Two things for me

  1. The constant TMO intervention must be a pain for the refs, and picking through the minutiae of every piece of play isn't helping improve the game itself
  2. We should be good enough to overcome a YC. The saffas are highly capable of this right now, but we don't appear to have the strong on field leadership required to shut it down for 10 minutes
Dodge

@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Dodge said in England Vs All Blacks:

It didn’t ruin the game is my point. Don’t do it. Sometimes the ref will ping you. (Same goes for Earl).

Two things for me

  1. The constant TMO intervention must be a pain for the refs, and picking through the minutiae of every piece of play isn't helping improve the game itself
  2. We should be good enough to overcome a YC. The saffas are highly capable of this right now, but we don't appear to have the strong on field leadership required to shut it down for 10 minutes

TMO is a more interesting question to me, as the offside at the lineout before George Ford’s try was picked up by the TMO but not on the field. Fair enough, but where do you start and stop. Ultimately I’m of the view that good decisions made badly are better than bad decisions made live but it’s a balance (and bad decisions will be made in either situation). Rugby fans will whinge either way, it’s not cricket

I think it was a massive blow for us losing Fabian Holland in the build up to this test. As it was losing Patrick Tuipolotu before the tour when he was in career best form.

Our locks/engine room were really undersized again in this match as it was Vs SA in Wellington and their scrum and carrying game suffered as a result.

Our locks moving forward should be big men who can provide guaranteed go forward Holland, Darry and Tuipolotu. While Lord played alright he is a bit of a Jason Eaton, Dodie Weir bean pole, if selected it he should only be partnered with a really big man.

Imo Scott Barrett and Tupou Vaai need to have really strong Super rugby seasons at blind side in order to be picked to play internationally from now on.

In fact New Zealand rugby should put out a etiquette for NZ Super rugby sides that no one under 195 centimeters is allowed to play six in Super rugby anymore.

Josh Beehre and Cameron Christie should be 6 for the Blues
Tupoui Vaai and Naitoa Ah Kuoi. should be 6 for the Chiefs
Caleb Delaney and Tom Allen should be 6 for the Chiefs
Scott Barrett and Jamie Hannah should be 6 for the Crusaders
Tk Howdens, Will Stoddard or Oli Haig should be 6 for the Highlanders.

NTA

Watching back now.

Could the TMO fuck off?

@Steven-Harris said in England Vs All Blacks:

@BorderJB the one thing i will say about Ardie and did wonder about this during the Super season , how much petrol would he have in the tank come the back end of the season?
He looks absolutely shattered i personally think their were games that either Du Plessis Kirifi and or Peter Lakai could have started in the 7 jersey
Fair to say having Scooter injured did not help and that meant having Ardie pick up the captains role but if i have one issue with this coaching group , we select players but never play them Kirifi and Love are classic case in point

Du Plesis Kirifi and Leroy Carter are too small and not players who can succeed longterm in test match rugby with the physicality it demands. Both were poor selection for this tour especially Kirifi who was already found out in the Rugby Championship.

NTA

Also: if Codie Taylor deserves a yellow card there, you're going to empty the field pretty quickly...

mariner4life

Time to reset expectations boys, we are just an ordinary football side. We don't do anything well, our so-called stars and leaders are just complete non-entities. I submit for consideration that without Cam Roigard we would have lost at least one more test this year.

England were better than us at everything bar the set piece, which was our only shining light today. Their loose forwards bitched ours, their backs were far more threatening, Ford controlled the game beautifully.

What the fuck is our defence? We have no line speed, we don't hit with hard shoulders, and we lose our connections so very quickly. Appalling.

What was our phase plan? Ok hit the blind. But we pass to a guy who has retreated to get in position. And thus no momentum. Poor lakai tried his guts out but he's too small to be used like that. Slow ball to slow ball to slow ball to shit kick. Or wide cut out and hope our winger can run over 5 blokes.

If that performance isn't the end of beaudens career then we are not serious about winning. Absolutely dog shit in everything he did. And DMac wasn't much better, but at least he can find touch.

Savea and Parker were anonymous, absolutely bitched by Earl. Who exactly are our difference makers? God we're so mid.

I'm not even mad, I'm just... I don't know, underwhelmed

We're shit, we're going nowhere,

Nepia

Congrats England. Outplayed us after the first 15-20 minutes. I was never confident going into this match, and I woke up this morning to see my Saffa mate was messaging me, he only does that when the ABs lose, so while I ignored the messages I was fully prepped for the loss.

Why do the ABs even bother to kick up and unders, we’re the worst team at contesting them.

How do you stuff up two penalty clearances BB? @booboo Are you claiming Roigard kicked one of them? I don’t want to do a rewatch, so hopefully someone else can confirm.

Does anyone else get annoyed that halfbacks drag a ball back through a ruck with their hands and it's seemingly fine?

Another week where Jordan’s basic passing skills are shown up. How is he so good at the rest of the game. Was he always sick when they did up and down the field passing drills at school?

The AB’s inability to bring down Lawerance in the first half directly led to the try in the second, which is not to absolve QT of a bloody poor defensive read. In fact our out wide defence from 13-15 looked shaky all night. LF was coming in during the first half like he was DWZ at the Warriors.

Funniest thing was Justin Marshall saying how a team of the ABs stature can recover a deficit in 5 minutes. Yeah, not this AB team Justin.

I think the biggest issues I have is with our passiveness in both attack and defence. In attack we just seem to form up to hit the defenders and set the ruck, we’re not looking to punch through. In defence we seem to wait for attackers to come to us and it means that they’re always going over the advantage line which opens up more space on the next attack.

I like Pollack’s energy. He was great during the haka. His energy is like Itoje except likeable. 🙂

And in yet another episode of World Rugby hates rugby. How do you give a yellow card for a 50/50 call nowhere near in the attacking zone. The issue with it is that so many other small incidents happen in the game that could draw penalties/cards and don’t. In this game alone players were playing the ball on the ground, tackling on the ground, not using the arms in tackles, where was the TMO then?

And no, Earl rightfully getting carded for pulling down a maul doesn’t have any relevance to the Taylor card.

Also, pointing out inconsistent and problematic card decisions is not bitterness. Commenting and criticising on all aspects of a match is the lifeblood of this forum and the majority of it is directed at our players and coaches - any poster who thinks otherwise is not paying attention. Suggesting we reserve our criticism of contentious reffing decisions because our team lost is fucking stupid.

Jet

@NTA said in England Vs All Blacks:

Also: if Codie Taylor deserves a yellow card there, you're going to empty the field pretty quickly...

If Codie walked, then Itoje has to go for playing Scooter in the air and slapping the ball out 8 years from their own line.

Nepia

@KiwiMurph said in England Vs All Blacks:

@brodean said in England Vs All Blacks:

LF for me has been very much hit and miss. He does make things happen but he is also a very slopply player in defence, in his handling, and in his discipline. He's arguably the most inaccurate back in the squad. I think whether good outweighs the bad is up for debate.

Because of how Razor has picked the squad - the alternatives dont offer much. Reece, Rieko and ALB are all past it. Which begs the question why they are in the squad at all.

Aside from QT in one test no 13 has shown they're decisively a better option than Rieko. They're all supposed to be better attackers/passers yet none of them has proved that.

Agree on Reece and ALB though. 😉

NTA

@mariner4life I've maintained for a while that NZ Rugby is about 10-15 years behind Australia in terms of systems failure.

It'll probably be accelerated by the nature of Super Rugby as the Australian teams get weaker.

Dodge

@Nepia said in England Vs All Blacks:

Also, pointing out inconsistent and problematic card decisions is not bitterness. Commenting and criticising on all aspects of a match is the lifeblood of this forum and the majority of it is directed at our players and coaches - any poster who thinks otherwise is not paying attention. Suggesting we reserve our criticism of contentious reffing decisions because our team lost is fucking stupid.

I’m going to go out on a limb and assume this is aimed at me. If not, you can ignore the rest of this message. I didn’t say pointing out a yellow isn’t a yellow isn’t ok, i didn’t say you couldn’t criticise the decision. I didn’t even disagree that it wasn’t a yellow. I said it didn’t ruin (and would add, didn’t decide) the game.

NTA

@Jet said in England Vs All Blacks:

@NTA said in England Vs All Blacks:

Also: if Codie Taylor deserves a yellow card there, you're going to empty the field pretty quickly...

If Codie walked, then Itoje has to go for playing Scooter in the air and slapping the ball out 8 years from their own line.

Itoje deserved about 3 yellow cards if cynical offences are a straight yellow.

And about 5 for screaming like a bitch at lineout time.

Opposition teams should line someone adjacent to him at lineout and just scream at him. Fire with Fire

Jet

Keep in mind Codie got a yellow, for our first penalty in the game. Near the halfway line.

Dodge

@Jet said in England Vs All Blacks:

Keep in mind Codie got a yellow, for our first penalty in the game. Near the halfway line.

Blatant red if you ask me

Nepia

@ACT-Crusader said in England Vs All Blacks:

@sparky said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Tim Nope. That was 2012.

View embedded content

Nooo that must be some AI. That says the ABs had Jane and Nonu, Conrad and McCaw, Mealamu and Whitelock. And this was Hansen basically photocopying Henry’s playbook. I thought they were ruthless and calm and well coached.

Tuilagi and Barrit ripped us a new one that night.

TBF that was a one off extremely bad performance that is still talked about today because of how inept we were (especially at defending the overstayer). Whereas today's performance is not even the worst of this season.

mariner4life

@Dodge said in England Vs All Blacks:

Knew the result, read the thread, then watched the game. Blimey. Never seen a more apathetic AB team. England dominated the entire game. Won nearly every contact, ABs constantly beaten in the tackle and at the breakdown. Wow. ABs don’t look fit enough - lazy off the ball, can’t remember ever saying that before.

12-0 down but still felt like we were the better side. Ben Earl was immense, Pepper was great. But it wasn’t about individuals, they won every aspect of the game, contact after contact.

As for England, they still don’t look great structure wise but bugger me they smashed the ABs all over the park.

Absolutely agree. England were on top, we had two good minutes, and then England got back on top. Easily the better side.
I really like Earl he's a ripper.

KiwiMurph

@Nepia said in England Vs All Blacks:

Aside from QT in one test no 13 has shown they're decisively a better option than Rieko.

Almost like they should have kept QT at 13.....

canefan

@KiwiMurph said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Nepia said in England Vs All Blacks:

Aside from QT in one test no 13 has shown they're decisively a better option than Rieko.

Almost like they should have kept QT at 13.....

He played well. LF is error prone. I want to see Cam, DMac, JB and QT as the spine of our backline.

Nepia

@Dodge said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Nepia said in England Vs All Blacks:

Also, pointing out inconsistent and problematic card decisions is not bitterness. Commenting and criticising on all aspects of a match is the lifeblood of this forum and the majority of it is directed at our players and coaches - any poster who thinks otherwise is not paying attention. Suggesting we reserve our criticism of contentious reffing decisions because our team lost is fucking stupid.

I’m going to go out on a limb and assume this is aimed at me. If not, you can ignore the rest of this message. I didn’t say pointing out a yellow isn’t a yellow isn’t ok, i didn’t say you couldn’t criticise the decision. I didn’t even disagree that it wasn’t a yellow. I said it didn’t ruin (and would add, didn’t decide) the game.

If that's the case then you should have just said you disagreed with @No-Quarter's reading of the decision instead of adding in your final sentence.

Nepia

@KiwiMurph said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Nepia said in England Vs All Blacks:

Aside from QT in one test no 13 has shown they're decisively a better option than Rieko.

Almost like they should have kept QT at 13.....

Except we don't have any other 12's at the moment. Usually injuries have worked out for Razor in improving the team, in this case it didn't as once JB was out we can only really move QT back.

canefan

@Nepia said in England Vs All Blacks:

@KiwiMurph said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Nepia said in England Vs All Blacks:

Aside from QT in one test no 13 has shown they're decisively a better option than Rieko.

Almost like they should have kept QT at 13.....

Except we don't have any other 12's at the moment. Usually injuries have worked out for Razor in improving the team, in this case it didn't as once JB was out we can only really move QT back.

Couldn't Lester play 12? And just truck it up?

No Quarter

@Dodge said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Nepia said in England Vs All Blacks:

Also, pointing out inconsistent and problematic card decisions is not bitterness. Commenting and criticising on all aspects of a match is the lifeblood of this forum and the majority of it is directed at our players and coaches - any poster who thinks otherwise is not paying attention. Suggesting we reserve our criticism of contentious reffing decisions because our team lost is fucking stupid.

I’m going to go out on a limb and assume this is aimed at me. If not, you can ignore the rest of this message. I didn’t say pointing out a yellow isn’t a yellow isn’t ok, i didn’t say you couldn’t criticise the decision. I didn’t even disagree that it wasn’t a yellow. I said it didn’t ruin (and would add, didn’t decide) the game.

I never said it decided the match, you keep trying to strawman me and bait me which is why I am struggling to engage with you on this. I said a simple mistake from the ref changed the course of the match, which makes for a shit product and for me, ruins it. We want the players to change the course of matches through pieces of brilliance etc, not mistakes from the ref.

In cricket, they use the technology to reduce the impact of umpiring mistakes. It's the exact opposite in rugby.

Nepia

@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Nepia said in England Vs All Blacks:

@KiwiMurph said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Nepia said in England Vs All Blacks:

Aside from QT in one test no 13 has shown they're decisively a better option than Rieko.

Almost like they should have kept QT at 13.....

Except we don't have any other 12's at the moment. Usually injuries have worked out for Razor in improving the team, in this case it didn't as once JB was out we can only really move QT back.

Couldn't Lester play 12? And just truck it up?

Has he played much 12?

KiwiMurph

@Nepia said in England Vs All Blacks:

@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Nepia said in England Vs All Blacks:

@KiwiMurph said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Nepia said in England Vs All Blacks:

Aside from QT in one test no 13 has shown they're decisively a better option than Rieko.

Almost like they should have kept QT at 13.....

Except we don't have any other 12's at the moment. Usually injuries have worked out for Razor in improving the team, in this case it didn't as once JB was out we can only really move QT back.

Couldn't Lester play 12? And just truck it up?

Has he played much 12?

He played 12 during NPC. Looked good. When Jordie got injured I thought they would put Leicester at 12 but nope....

@KiwiMurph said in England Vs All Blacks:

@brodean said in England Vs All Blacks:

LF for me has been very much hit and miss. He does make things happen but he is also a very slopply player in defence, in his handling, and in his discipline. He's arguably the most inaccurate back in the squad. I think whether good outweighs the bad is up for debate.

Because of how Razor has picked the squad - the alternatives dont offer much. Reece, Rieko and ALB are all past it. Which begs the question why they are in the squad at all.

Well then Razor and co need to do a better job selecting the squad. The squad selections have been rubbish.

For me the following should be gone:

  • Parker <- Sotutu/Flanders
  • Jacobson <- Papali'i
  • Kirifi <- Flanders/CLW
  • Ratima <- Fakatava
  • Christie <- Preston
  • ALB <- Ennor/Lam
  • Reece <- ENS/Tangitau
  • Carter <- ENS/Tangitau
  • Beauden Barrett <- Reihana

I'd dump Barrett completely. It's no coincidence the Blues won their SR TT title and SRP title when he was away in Japan.

@Jet said in England Vs All Blacks:

Keep in mind Codie got a yellow, for our first penalty in the game. Near the halfway line.

I thought it was harsh but we shouldn't have allowed the game to get away from us. We had already started to let the game get away from us. We had one good first quarter and the rest was garbage.

I always thought that there would be question marks about how Robertson's Super success would translate to test level because his players wouldn't be allowed to get away with the same level of shenanigans they got away with at Super level.

Jet

@Nepia said in England Vs All Blacks:

@ACT-Crusader said in England Vs All Blacks:

@sparky said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Tim Nope. That was 2012.

View embedded content

Nooo that must be some AI. That says the ABs had Jane and Nonu, Conrad and McCaw, Mealamu and Whitelock. And this was Hansen basically photocopying Henry’s playbook. I thought they were ruthless and calm and well coached.

Tuilagi and Barrit ripped us a new one that night.

TBF that was a one off extremely bad performance that is still talked about today because of how inept we were (especially at defending the overstayer). Whereas today's performance is not even the worst of this season.

Didnt most of our team have a dose of the shits?

Norovirus.

bayimports

@booboo said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Gunner said in England Vs All Blacks:

Beauden Barrett, not once but twice, fucking TWICE missing touch

In BB's defence it was ONCE ... (once too many). Roigard fucked up the second one.

Which points of the fact BB was injured, and should have been hooked.

In fact both were carrying injuries through the first half, dont know if Roigards ankle was already gone when that second missed touch finder took place. I think we all agree Roigard more important to stay on the field than BB if he could . Yes BB should have been hooked.

Razor mentions in a post match speech that a few were carrying injuries into the half time break.

...he also said lots of changes next week

canefan

@bayimports said in England Vs All Blacks:

@booboo said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Gunner said in England Vs All Blacks:

Beauden Barrett, not once but twice, fucking TWICE missing touch

In BB's defence it was ONCE ... (once too many). Roigard fucked up the second one.

Which points of the fact BB was injured, and should have been hooked.

In fact both were carrying injuries through the first half, dont know if Roigards ankle was already gone when that second missed touch finder took place. I think we all agree Roigard more important to stay on the field than BB if he could . Yes BB should have been hooked.

Razor mentions says in a post match speech that a few were carrying injuries into the half time break.

...he also said lots of changes next week

In other words pour all the reserves on and watch them flounder

bayimports

Not going to add to much as we were beaten well and truly from pillar to post from a team who looked much better for eighty minutes through the middle. On the few chances we had where we did look to create space we were arguably better at that and our defensive lineouts in the first half were outstanding. However our passive attack and defense for the rest was awful.

When we did have controlled phase ball we would generally only make 5 meters in 5-10 hit ups. Players often in each others way and was hard work to get the half break. Just an awful watch

On the other hand England hit it up with pace often which was irritating to watch, when your team should be capable to do so, but fails.

Interestingly we had been resting some of our loosies through rotation but arguably Ardie should have been rested for more mins in previous games, as not for the first time this year looked off top speed. He was not the only one who looked gassed , but if ever there was a time you want the highlight reel to shine and inspire his troops, that would have been it.

Well done England.

bayimports

@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:

@bayimports said in England Vs All Blacks:

@booboo said in England Vs All Blacks:

@Gunner said in England Vs All Blacks:

Beauden Barrett, not once but twice, fucking TWICE missing touch

In BB's defence it was ONCE ... (once too many). Roigard fucked up the second one.

Which points of the fact BB was injured, and should have been hooked.

In fact both were carrying injuries through the first half, dont know if Roigards ankle was already gone when that second missed touch finder took place. I think we all agree Roigard more important to stay on the field than BB if he could . Yes BB should have been hooked.

Razor mentions says in a post match speech that a few were carrying injuries into the half time break.

...he also said lots of changes next week

In other words pour all the reserves on and watch them flounder

apparently was always part of his master plan...

I think our worst actual problem is how passive and completely choreographed our attack is.

It is so bad it is quite shocking. We have some of the most talented players on the planet (we 100% do, the deserving starters at least) and we are effectively playing with one arm tied behind our backs.

I genuinely had huge optimism for Robertson because I had always thought he was an innovative and thoughtful analyst of the game who could understand these patterns, and how possession matters.

But we genuinely play as if we are taking possession for granted. Just useless nothing one off runners, you can see the players are not playing what's in front of them but are actually falling to the ground pre-tackle to set up the next phase in their 'plan'. The embarrassing 'pod' system, having some of the worst handlers in the team (like Scott Barrett) handle the ball every time we are hot on attack and looking to go wide? REALLY?!

And as for heads up play, Roigard is our best player because he's one of the very few who actually still plays heads up. He actually plays what's in front of him and is therefore extremely unpredictable.

Also hilarious that Fainganuku has been one of the more impressive players on attack because he also is playing heads up rugby and thinking on the spot. The rest of our team doesn't do that. So so so predictable and easy to defend.

And when your attack is that pedestrian, the opposing team gets more opportunities to attack you back. So I'm not surprised at all to see us concede more than in previous years and struggle with cards (teams are primarily carded when under defensive pressure).