@mohikamo said in Does Super Rugby prepare players for Test Rugby?:
If you didn't read all of @mauss below this is the last sentence.
"The next AB coach would be wise to look at Super Rugby and simply accept the fruits given to him: get dominant on defence and at the breakdown, and attack from anywhere."
I agree with his conclusion, and your comments 100%.
Keep it simple!
said in Does Super Rugby prepare players for Test Rugby?:
If you didn't read all of @mauss below this is the last sentence.
"The next AB coach would be wise to look at Super Rugby and simply accept the fruits given to him: get dominant on defence and at the breakdown, and attack from anywhere."
I agree with his conclusion, and your comments 100%.
That was a comment on @canefan, not @mauss
Trying to keep it simple!
@mohikamo said in Does Super Rugby prepare players for Test Rugby?:
said in Does Super Rugby prepare players for Test Rugby?:
If you didn't read all of @mauss below this is the last sentence.
"The next AB coach would be wise to look at Super Rugby and simply accept the fruits given to him: get dominant on defence and at the breakdown, and attack from anywhere."
I agree with his conclusion, and your comments 100%.
That was a comment on @canefan, not @mauss
Trying to keep it simple!
I figured you were commenting on Mauss' comment and was just chiming in!
18 days later
The speed of attack has become crucial in today’s game: this weekend’s France versus England Test was yet another great example of how the highest levels of the game are currently moving at a breakneck pace, the speed of the attack simply overwhelming the defence. England’s first score of the night nicely encapsulated this.
Off a Dupont box kick, England build a total of 7 rucks. Off those 7 rucks, 6 of them were lightning quick (LQB), taking 3 seconds or less for the ball to be recycled and moved away from the ruck.
Throughout the sequence, England use a relatively traditional 1-3-3-1 shape, with two groups of tight five forwards (+ Pepper) in the middle and Chessum and Earl on the edges. Three things, however, make the shape very potent: (1) the aforementioned quickness of delivery, (2) the interplay of the forwards, consistently shifting the point of attack before contact, and (3) Fin Smith’s play at the line, both attacking the defence himself as well as playing out the back.
First English scoring sequence: Itoje with the short pass at the line; Coles, Smith and Spencer shifting the point of attack at the line; and finally, Fin Smith outflanking the French defence
With the French defence unable to stifle momentum through a lack of dominant hits and breakdown pressure, the English attack is able to outflank its opponent, allowing Roebuck to dot down in the corner.
It’s much the same for the second English score: from a lineout just outside the French 22, England build just 5 rucks, but each of them across the gain line and under 3 seconds. While the shape is different – both Chessum and Earl now attacking through the middle – the principles remain the same: use lightning quick ball to get behind the French defensive line and let the halfbacks (Spencer and Smith) orchestrate strikes through either hands or the boot.
The French defence is unable to keep up with the attack and miss out on Fin Smith swinging back to the blindside for Spencer's grubber
Speed was also the deciding factor for the French scores. But while the English generated momentum through building quick rucks, the French on the other hand attempt to avoid building rucks altogether, preferring instead to keep the ball alive at first or second phase, and attack the available space from the off. The first two French scores required just the one ruck in total, a crash ball from Matiu in midfield. The rest was just clean kick execution towards the space by Ramos and Jalibert, with Bielle-Biarrey on hand to finish.
Ramos kick
Jalibert kick
While you could argue that this is ‘bad defence’ – similar to how Ben Smith just argued for RugbyPass – the reality is that any defensive realignment towards anticipating LBB’s line here will simply create a different space to attack for Jalibert. When you have playmakers as skilled as Jalibert and Ramos, any defensive scheme will have certain weaknesses.
SRP: lightning quick ball but mixed degrees of direction
England have led this year’s Six Nations in LQB (60% of their rucks are between 0 and 3 seconds) but their attack has only clicked against Wales and France. This is also indicative of the fact that quick ball in itself isn’t enough to create a potent attack. What you also need is direction, from halfbacks that steer the attack towards the right part of the field and are able to get the ball where the defence is at its weakest.
Fin Smith carried the ball 7 times for 27 metres against France, and while this might not seem like a massive number, his ability to take on the line had a massive effect on the French defensive line. Similarly, Dupont, Jalibert and Ramos displayed pinpoint accuracy with their boot and their decision-making, creating multiple tries for France through sheer skill execution.
Furthermore, the shape of your attack matters as well. If you have quick ball but the halfback has no real potent attacking options surrounding him, then the chances are high your attack is going nowhere.
So, with all this in mind, how does Super Rugby stack up at the moment? In terms of quick ball provided, Super Rugby is clearly of international standard, with most sides averaging 50% or more ruck speed of 3 seconds or less.
Super Rugby is still a fast-paced competition (stats from RugbyPass)
This compares favourably to a competition like the Six Nations, where the sides average between 44.8 (ITA) and 60% (ENG) of lightning quick ball. A side like the Chiefs, for example, are currently averaging quicker ball than any Six Nations side, while the Highlanders’ 76% quick ball against the Crusaders in Round 5 represents the highest recorded percentage across the competitions.
But the caveats quickly appear here. Because while the Highlanders had plenty of quick ball at Apollo Projects Stadium, they had very little to show for it, with just the 18 points and 5 line breaks on the stat sheet. A comparison to the France-England game quickly makes apparent what the men from the South were lacking. While Ben Spencer and Fin Smith were bossing the English attack, putting variety into their shapes and attacking the line with intensity, the Landers halfbacks were unable to provide similar incision.
Fakatava and Millar combined for just 8 runs and 31 metres, a low number considering the amount of opportunities to attack the seams from quick ball. They were mostly content to go either vertical or lateral, hoping for opposition errors or some magic from Tangitau or Tavatavanawai. Such straightforwardness, however, is easy to defend, the Crusaders defence swallowing up an attack that is easy to read.
That represents a missed opportunity because when Millar did decide to run, it clearly spooked the Crusaders’ defence.
Millar half break
The Highlanders attack in the 63rd minute is a good example of why quick ball in itself doesn’t mean very much. Tavatavanawai is launched inside the Crusaders 22 off a set piece attack, and while the Landers are able to generate quick ball (< 3 seconds), at no point does the point of attack shift at the line (short passing, offload after contact). It’s just one-off runners, making it rather predictable and easy to defend. The Highlanders can’t cross the gain line and are eventually turned over by Fainga’anuku.
Quickly going nowhere: the Landers attack is unable to dent the Crusaders defence through a lack of variety
This can be contrasted to the Crusaders’ approach to quick ball and, especially, their halfbacks role in exploiting such ball. Both Hotham and Reihana tried to switch up play, attacking the line from 10 or sniping around the ruck, combining for 14 runs and 76 metres carried. Whenever Hotham sniffed an opportunity, he wouldn’t hesitate to run at the space.
Exploiting lightning quick ball: Hotham runs at the space around the ruck
This approach also led to different outcomes inside the opposition 22: whereas the Highlanders lack variety, the Crusaders tried to consistently shift the point of attack, attacking where the Landers defence was weakest. In the first half, from a tap penalty, Hotham passes left after a right decoy run from the forwards. Reihana attacks the line and offloads back inside to Ennor. With a quick recycle and the Landers defence in shambles, Newell can basically fall over onto the try line.
Reihana attacks the line
Similarly, in the 65th minute, with the Crusaders hot on attack off of turnover ball, Reihana is presented the ball just inside the Highlanders 22. Rather than further passing along the chain to the openside, he swings the ball back to the blind, to where an open Will Jordan is faced with a bunch of tight 5 forwards. While the try is disallowed for obstruction, it shows clear principles of how to exploit the benefits of quick ball.
Reihana shifts the point of attack
Tl;dr
While the North’s recent scoring extravaganza is considered by some to be caused by poor defence, the reality of it is, is that attacking efficiency is reaching new heights. Combining lightning quick ball with multi-skilled halfbacks is a nightmare to defend for any team, below or above the equator.
So how is Super Rugby stacking up? The competition as a whole is providing quick ball but in terms of halfback direction and attacking shape, it is more of a mixed bag. Simply producing quick ball isn’t enough: the team also needs decisive and skilled playmakers, as well as players (forwards or backs) able to shift the point of attack close to the line. While some seem to have lost their running game (Fakatava), others, like Hotham and Reihana, are growing in confidence, attacking the line and creating a complex picture for the defence to read. Further polish some of their other skills and the points will rack up in Super Rugby as well.
@Mauss excellent analysis and it agrees neatly with the eye test (which may be why it's excellent), but a rush defence is now obviously best countered by a distributing player who can make decisions at the edge of the fold. With the hard running centre at that very point it creates the decision moment for defences - and that's what develops opportunities.
@Mauss said in Does Super Rugby prepare players for Test Rugby?:
The speed of attack has become crucial in today’s game: this weekend’s France versus England Test was yet another great example of how the highest levels of the game are currently moving at a breakneck pace, the speed of the attack simply overwhelming the defence. England’s first score of the night nicely encapsulated this.
I made the comment in the game thread that I was amazed at the ruck speed of England's last try. It was so quick France were incapable of stemming the tide - throw a player in to try and slow it down and you're short in defence because the ball has already gone. The irony being the speed meant the defence was overwhelmed as a result of France capitulating the ruck to try and defend.
Admittedly it was at the death of the game which had been remarkably fast paced for a considerable part of it, but it demonstrates that with the right referee the gameplan to move the ball matched with hard carry cleans can provide the space for skills to dominate.
@antipodean said in Does Super Rugby prepare players for Test Rugby?:
I made the comment in the game thread that I was amazed at the ruck speed of England's last try. It was so quick France were incapable of stemming the tide - throw a player in to try and slow it down and you're short in defence because the ball has already gone. The irony being the speed meant the defence was overwhelmed as a result of France capitulating the ruck to try and defend.
England consistently shifting the point of attack at the line, via forwards passing short or Spencer using an array of (well-executed) attacking kicks, also played a considerable role in this, I think. If you don't know where the ruck is going to be formed, it's very hard to attack the breakdown on the front foot.
It's the fascinating thing about Test rugby right now. You need to be clear as a collective before the game has even started on whether you're going to go all-in on attacking the breakdown or whether you're going to go for defensive numbers in the line. Ireland were always going to attack the Scottish breakdown because they wanted to frustrate their attacking momentum. France-England would've been a totally different game if France had decided to really go after English quick ball. Their inability to anticipate the English plan nearly cost them the title.
Knowing what to emphasize during the week is what makes a great international head coach (which Andy Farrell has proven to be, once again). It's very small margins at the top nowadays.
1 month later
Graham Henry's verdict on Super Rugby Pacific
Graham Henry recently made the point in an interview with Martin Devlin that Super Rugby doesn’t prepare for international rugby because, amongst other reasons, there are simply not enough development opportunities for young players. With just 5 NZ SRP teams and most of the top All Blacks playing at home, there are neither enough games nor places for young players to get any sort of significant game time.
As a result, you have players reaching the highest levels who have barely figured at the immediate level below. Wallace Sititi had played just 680 minutes of Super Rugby (13 appearances but less than 9 full games in terms of minutes) before getting capped, George Bell 727 minutes, Pasilio Tosi 791 minutes, Noah Hotham 851 minutes. Kyle Preston had just played 469 minutes of Super Rugby before appearing against the Springboks at Eden Park.
Later in the interview Devlin tried to go against Ted’s argument for the importance of player rotation by saying that “we shouldn’t hand out All Blacks jerseys”. But looking at these numbers of playing minutes, that’s exactly what’s been happening, and this for more than a few years now.
In order to get a fuller sense of Henry’s argument, I’ve looked at the age profile of Super Rugby teams, comparing them to their counterparts in Europe (Champions Cup) and Japan (JRLO). I’ve also tried to map out what opportunities are available to young players, tracing the playing minutes of U21 players across these teams (all stats used are from all.rugby).
What becomes apparent is that, from a development perspective, there are some serious structural issues within the NZ rugby pyramid which are clearly impacting the ability of the national team to perform to the best of its abilities. I’ll conclude by briefly reflecting on the South African case, arguing that for Henry’s vision to work the NZR would have to go even beyond what SARU are currently doing. Whether that's realistic I'll leave to others more in the know.
Matchday squads age profile: Super Rugby Pacific compared to Europe and Japan
What kind of competition is Super Rugby Pacific in terms of age profile? In order to get a better sense of this, we can compare the different SRP matchday squads (Round 9) with their counterparts in Europe and Japan, looking at the average ages of forwards and backs from the Round of 16 of the Champions Cup and Round 14 of the JRLO. What quickly becomes apparent is that SRP is by no means an old man’s competition.
The average of forwards and backs in matchday squads across SRP, the Champions Cup and the JRLO
While there is a lot of variation within competitions like the Top 14 and the Premiership – Toulouse having an experienced forward pack and a youthful backline, with Toulon having the opposite for their clash with the Stormers – the Japanese and Super Rugby competitions are on clear opposite ends of the spectrum. The SRP sides consistently have some of the youngest matchday squads whereas in Japan the teams have a lot more experienced heads running around. Interestingly, Dave Rennie’s Kobe had the oldest average age of all the matchday squads, his forwards being around 32 years old while his backs averaged out at 28.
By contrast, the Blues, Crusaders (SRP) and Northampton Saints had the youngest matchday squads, Northampton picking a very youthful forward pack for their game against Castres while the Crusaders and the Blues picked youth in the backline. Looking at the competitions as a whole, this pattern is re-established, especially for Kiwi SRP sides.
The competitions compared on the basis of the average age of a matchday squad
Again, the same picture appears: the Japanese league is by far the oldest on average while the NZ teams are typically the youngest, both in the pack and amongst the backline. When looking at the NZ SRP teams, it does become more obvious that SRP is essentially a development competition, where players play in their mid-twenties before either becoming capped All Blacks or moving away overseas.
This is an issue, especially for the forwards, as the prime ages for these players are around 28 or 29. When looking at the graph above, it seems as though the Top 14 is getting that balance right in the Champions Cup, with an average age for their forward packs just above 28 years old. While teams like the Blues and Crusaders will be able to put up more experienced packs come the playoff rounds, it does show a lack of depth in experience across those sides.
Still, as I will show below, this does not mean that SRP provides plenty of playing opportunities for young players. Rather, it shows the vision of a competition which has an incredibly tight window of high performance – between the ages of 22 and 27 – after which a definitive selection is made on which players will remain in the competition (ABs) and who will move overseas. Players who take a bit longer to reach their peak or who require different environments to get to the top of their game – think Jamison Gibson-Park – will most likely end up playing Test rugby elsewhere. Looking at the struggles with halfback depth behind Roigard (Hotham, Ratima, Fakatava, Preston), this is far from an ideal situation.
U21 minutes across competitions
Before I can get to the actual numbers of U21 minutes played, some remarks are first in order. First, why focus on U21s? I believe the years between 18 and 21 are a crucial period of player development, with the first steps of professionalism being undertaken. Yet this period, ironically enough, often goes paired with a distinct lack of consistent rugby, with players bouncing around between all kinds of playing environments (U19s, U20s, club rugby, provincial rugby, national rugby, and so on) without getting the opportunity to settle for a longer period of time.
And this brings me to a second point: the way different competitions engage with their U21 players varies greatly. In Europe, you have big Top 14 and Premiership academies, where players play and compete alongside each other for a number of years. While this can be a lonely and alienating experience for players in its own right, what it does provide is consistency. In Super Rugby Pacific, you can get a development contract or you can be selected in the main squad outright. The academy system is mostly associated with the NPC sides yet it seems unlikely to me (although feel free to correct this) that these teams have the proper facilities available to organize continuous development for those players who fall outside of these SRP contracts.
With this in mind, we can look at the total playing minutes of U21s (i.e. being born on January 1st 2005 or later) across these competitions from this current season. Despite just having the data for 4 Top 14 and 7 Premiership teams (in comparison to 11 SRP and 12 JRLO teams), these two comps stand out substantially in terms of afforded playing minutes to U21 players.
The 7 Prem teams (Northampton, Bath, Saracens, Bristol, Harlequins, Sale and Leicester) and 4 Top 14 teams (Toulon, Toulouse, Castres, Bordeaux) have a massive advantage on their competitors (data last checked on the 16th of April ’26)
So what exactly is going on here? There are currently 9 U21 players contracted to NZ SRP teams (see table below). Of those, only Manumaua Letiu has received any playing minutes so far this season (51’ in total), with Tito-Harris joining him in Round 10 after his debut for the Highlanders off the bench at Eden Park. These numbers might’ve been different if Pledger hadn’t gotten injured in preseason but it’s still quite a small number of players regardless, with the Hurricanes having no one from ’05, their youngest current player contracted being Vernon Bason (’04 birth).
The NZ U21 players contracted to SRP teams
The gap in playing opportunities becomes really visible when we compare this playing group to the U21 players already used this season by the 4 French R16 Champions Cup teams.
The 28 U21 players who have received gametime for 4 Top 14 clubs this season
These players are different from their Kiwi counterparts in that they are typically not contracted to the senior side but are part of the academy. What they do receive, however, is game time: all of these players have played either Top 14 or Champions Cup, the highest levels you can reach below Test level.
Of course, not all of these players are the same: someone like Colin Dupuy (CAS) has only played 4 senior minutes this season, whereas Kalvin Gourgues (TLS) has become a regular in the Toulouse midfield (1212 minutes). Similarly, what is noticeable is how many different nationalities appear in the French youth system: there are South Africans (Everitt), Englishmen (Kpoku) and Georgians (Shioshvili) but also Polish players (Zapedowski) and those who represent Spain at international level (Richardis). It’s the globalizing rugby market at work.
The reason why so many Top 14 U21s get playing minutes is twofold: it is due to the immense investments being put into the academies and it is further made possible by the sheer amounts of games available. With a maximum of 29 possible games in the Top 14, as well as another potential 12 Champions Cup matches, certain Top 14 teams play 35+ games per season which necessitates rotation and massive available squads. Teams like Toulouse, Bordeaux, Northampton and Leinster all have excellent academies which allows them to bring through game-ready youngsters, giving the next generation game time while still holding onto some of the biggest names in the sport.
The SA case: so has Rassie got it right?
Throughout his interview with Devlin, Graham Henry waxed lyrical about SARU’s current approach to things, referring to the depth, playing opportunities and team culture created by Rassie Erasmus. By allowing wealthy overseas clubs to pay for the best Springboks, so Ted opined, the way is being paved for the next generation to come through.
But while it’s tempting to view the Springbok Test results as a direct reflection of the South African rugby pyramid, the reality is slightly more complex than that. The South African case is quite unique and shows some of the challenges that come even with a higher number of playing opportunities available.
1. Young players still have their pathway blocked
While the South African teams are giving their U21 players more game time compared to the NZ SRP teams, this discrepancy still isn’t as high as it probably should be. For example, despite the fact that the South African teams can play up to 10 more games per season than they did in Super Rugby – the Bulls played 27 games during the 2024-25 season, compared to a maximum of 17 SR games that season – their U21 minutes still lag considerably behind the Top 14.
The four SA teams (Bulls, Lions, Sharks, Stormers) compared to the four Top 14 Champions Cup teams (R16)
And this is despite the fact that multiple U20 World Cup winners are entering into the professional domain, such as Pead, Hlekani, Jooste, Mlaba and Jaco Williams. As South Africa only really has 4 professional rugby teams (plus the semi-pro Cheetahs), there are a huge number of professional journeymen available within South African professional rugby, who are taking up places for more promising young rugby players.
The international rugby market is largely saturated, also due the availability of the top Springboks, who are of course preferred in Japanese rugby. Graham Henry’s ideal of the top ABs being paid for has, then, an unintended side-effect: those fringe SRP players who weren’t good enough for the ABs will most likely lose their contracts and return to Super Rugby Pacific. So if the competition isn’t expanded with more Kiwi teams, those U21 players will still not get any more opportunities than they currently have.
2. Overseas development opportunities are becoming blocked
Henry’s vision of the All Blacks also included them actually developing as rugby players abroad, learning from top clubs on how to become better players and perform on the highest stage. Erasmus undoubtedly had a similar idea yet hit a snag due to these Boks underperforming abroad. Jon Cardinelli, the SA journalist, released a graph last year which clearly showed that certain competitions like the Premiership and the Top 14 had lost their appetite for Springboks, as they couldn’t (or wouldn’t) replicate their Test form for their club teams.
Fewer and fewer Springboks are playing in competitions such as the Premiership and Top 14, with the majority of them playing in Japan (source: Jon Cardinelli: https://www.rugbypass.com/plus/how-the-springboks-are-looking-east-for-a-world-cup-three-peat/)
A player like Pieter-Steph Du Toit is a good example of why paying for the top Springboks is a poisoned chalice for club teams. Since the 2023 Rugby World Cup, Du Toit has played 19 out of 27 Bok Tests (70%), mostly going for the full 80. In that same time period, however, PSDT has played in just 14 club games for Toyota Verblitz, out of a possible 48 (29%).
It seems likely then that his next contract will, once again, be in South Africa, just as it was for Etzebeth, Kolisi, Reinach and Pollard. Thomas Du Toit, arguably the best tighthead in the world right now, is also moving back to South Africa after this season. In an inverse move, Ruan Nortjé, the Bulls lock, is going to Japan at the end of the season, in a move rumoured to be engineered by Rassie in order to make sure his locks are rested enough for the 2027 Rugby World Cup.
So what we are seeing in South Africa is by no means the workings of the free market but something that is carefully being orchestrated by Erasmus. If his idea was to let other cash-rich clubs pay for his top Springboks, it seems fair to say that it hasn’t quite worked out like that.
A different path
So if NZR were to follow in the footsteps of SARU and allow their top ABs to play overseas, they would do well to see how the South African system is far from functioning perfectly. The new generation isn’t coming through effortlessly at professional level and overseas clubs are becoming more and more hesitant in signing expensive Boks. If the ABs were to go in the same direction, these clubs will make sure to communicate their expectations, which is that the club comes first.
And if Graham Henry’s view of the future were to be successful, it will most likely depend on NZR’s ability to create more playing opportunities for young players at the highest levels, expanding both the numbers of teams as well as the number of high-level tournaments these teams participate in. A massive investment in academy systems will also be necessary, if they want these players to be ready for game time when they do eventually get their opportunities in these tournaments.
That all sounds like a massive amount of money needing to be spent. And looking at NZ Rugby’s recent financial policies as well as their inability to get reforms across the bridge, it also sounds like an incredibly unlikely turn of events. The only thing we can hope for is that the current administration has some more nous than the former. At least that shouldn't be so hard.
Tl;dr
Graham Henry’s argument for Super Rugby’s inability to prepare players for Test rugby is built around the lack of playing opportunities available to young players. Analysis of SRP age profiles shows two things: (1) SRP has an incredibly tight high-performance window (22-27) after which a huge number of players leave the competition. And (2) due to a lack of an aligned academy system, SRP teams give essentially no playing time to U21s, this despite the fact that these are key years for professional development.
While Henry points to South Africa’s overseas selection policy as an example to follow, their unique situation has shown its own limitations (limited U21 minutes, diminishing opportunities for top Springboks overseas). It might be worth exploring how a French-style development system (more teams + high investment in academies) could be implemented within the structures of Super Rugby Pacific. While this would require serious funding (as well as dissolving the NPC as a professional competition), without such an investment it is difficult to see how NZR would keep up the pace alongside the rest of the rugby world.
As a warning, I’d recommend watching Squidge Rugby’s latest video on how the situation in Wales has unravelled. Not investing in your own future pretty much equals giving up on it.
@Mauss As you say, the Top 14 teams have the advantage of playing so many games, and in some don't have their French internationals available. So even with their large squads they will have to use academy players. Also, their "home and away" mentality means more U21 players get opportunities too.
@Bovidae said in Does Super Rugby prepare players for Test Rugby?:
As you say, the Top 14 teams have the advantage of playing so many games, and in some don't have their French internationals available. So even with their large squads they will have to use academy players. Also, their "home and away" mentality means more U21 players get opportunities too.
The French show a lot of faith in their youngsters. Clermont have a big game at home this weekend against Lyon and they’re starting Léo Michaux at lock. He’s an 18-year-old ('07 birth). I can’t really imagine a player like Tevita Tatafu starting a game for the Blues and I’m pretty sure he’s older than Michaux.
But a lot of it comes back to the academies. Players like Michaux are already fulltime professionals: the academy sides have their own competitions which run alongside the senior ones, and they pretty much train and play as much as the senior side. So he’s not a raw player: I’ve seen him play a few times and he doesn’t play like he’s 18 years old.
I think it's fair to presume that is because his development curve has accelerated due to the environment he’s been in. I'd say that’s also the main difference with a guy like Tatafu, who just doesn’t look ready yet for professional rugby. He’s not a fulltime professional and that makes it much harder to develop consistently.
Better data-driven analysis than the 'professionals' provide, I really enjoyed the way you tested Ted's hypothesis, and that raises some fascinating issues to be solved.
That analysis certainly seems to support the argument by many of us here that we could strengthen Super by wrapping up the NPC and centralizing around Super (i.e., consistency + more Super teams), having home and away (i.e., more games), and forcing teams to use more of their academies earlier, making the competition more even but alos perhaps providing more opportunities for younger players.
@Mauss said in Does Super Rugby prepare players for Test Rugby?:
The French show a lot of faith in their youngsters.
With so many games it is not so much a question of showing faith in youth; as a case of having to show faith in the youth.
I dont believe an elite rugby player can play 30 games a year at a consistently high level.
The wear and tear just wont allow it.
I had noticed that there are very few Springboks in the French and English leagues.
And assumed that that was no accident.
The amount of games a European pro rugby club plays in a season is ridiculous.
If a French club wins thru in both comps it's nearly 40 games,
Add in the French international schedule (10+ games) a top player could be up for nearly 50 games!
No player could complete a season like that.
Plenty of opportunity for squad players and youth to sub into the schedule tho.
The ABs have a 13+4 game international schedule this year, on top of a possible 17 game SR season.
So that's a max of 34 games.
Most would agree it would not be physically possible for any one player to play in all those games at the required standard.
So something has to give; and that has to be SR; as the international program is by far the most financially lucrative.
And that is what happens, top players stand out of SR games.
Which must give opportunities to younger players.
Having more SR games would give even more opportunities.
But the already diluted SR product, would be diluted even more.
To me the AB 13+4 schedule, is the season.
Does SR prepare the players well enough for that season?
Probably; but probably only just.
Which is exactly what you want.
When I had a look at the Kobe roster I noticed that Savea had played nearly every minute of every game.
The J1 league is about a 17 game season.
While Rennie will be well aware of his level of conditioning; I expect Savea to be absent from a lot of the games on the AB schedule this season.
The only plus being that the wear and tear might not be as much of an issue in that league as it would in any of the other pro leagues.
Rassie knows that.
@Mr-Fish said in Does Super Rugby prepare players for Test Rugby?:
don't suppose you have comparable numbers for the NPC?
Not at hand, no. The same stats site does have information on the NPC - for example, https://all.rugby/club/auckland/squad - so it's possible to go through the squads and find the U21s. With Auckland for the 2025 season, that's Pole, Baker, Woodley, Simpson, Norrie and Tito-Harris. For the matchday squads, you can also find the average ages for forwards and backs.
But I didn't include it here because that would change the comparison (it was about the level directly below Test rugby). If I included the NPC, for comparative reasons, I would also have to include comps like the Currie Cup or the Premiership Rugby Cup. And I'm not even sure what my argument would be then.
What I do know is that, from last year's NZ U20 group, 26 of those players played at least some minutes at NPC level. So it's clear that NZ Rugby still views provincial rugby as the stepping stone to Super.
@mohikamo said in Does Super Rugby prepare players for Test Rugby?:
With so many games it is not so much a question of showing faith in youth; as a case of having to show faith in the youth.
I agree with the majority of your post but I'd like to add here that it is by no means necessary for professional sporting teams to give playing minutes to U21s, no matter how many games they have to play.
The example I often think about in this context is the Italian football system (Serie A). Rather than give minutes to youth players at the highest level, they use a loan system (to clubs in Serie B or even C, the 2nd and 3rd levels of Italian football). A promising player, in other words, can be forced to play in the 2nd and 3rd divisions until he's seen as ready for the top league (22 years old or even older). A famous example is a player like Andrea Pirlo, one of the best midfielders in history. He was sent to play at second division clubs until he was 22, and this despite being a very clear talent from a very young age.
The French could easily do exactly the same. There are a huge number of professional rugby players in France: not just ProD2 but National 1 and even beyond that. Top 14 clubs could plug their gaps by having cheap experienced campaigners in their squad, while sending their promising players for game time at the lower levels.
The French Federation explicitly wants to avoid this scenario, by rewarding clubs for having academy-formed (JIFF, Joueurs Issus des Filières de Formation) within their matchday squads. So my point is, if NZ Rugby were to follow Henry's ideal, then both an academy system and explicit youth policy is necessary. Otherwise, teams will want to outsource development, instead of giving players exposure to the highest level.
@rewa267 said in Does Super Rugby prepare players for Test Rugby?:
It's interesting that he has say's Super Rugby doesn't prepare players for international rugby. When the last three World Rugby breakthrough players of the year where All Blacks.
The last being a European at that which goes against the grain of Henrys thesis.
@nonpartizan said in Does Super Rugby prepare players for Test Rugby?:
@rewa267 said in Does Super Rugby prepare players for Test Rugby?:
It's interesting that he has say's Super Rugby doesn't prepare players for international rugby. When the last three World Rugby breakthrough players of the year where All Blacks.
The last being a European at that which goes against the grain of Henrys thesis.
Looks like the World Rugby breakthrough players of the year award isn't very helpful for the ABs!
Mark Tele'a - gone
Wallace Sititi-often injured
Fabian Holland-injured
21 days later
