@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@Bones said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@Bones said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
Alright Nigel
Glad you're here. Can you give us a weather report please ?
It's a miracle. I can see the sky.
Hallelujah !!!!!
I mean......fuck !!!
....that's not the only miracle we'll need today.
Too much to ask some of our specialist batters to grow a spine?
@canefan said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@Bones said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@Bones said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
Alright Nigel
Glad you're here. Can you give us a weather report please ?
It's a miracle. I can see the sky.
Hallelujah !!!!!
I mean......fuck !!!
....that's not the only miracle we'll need today.
Too much to ask some of our specialist batters to grow a spine?
Well they've all fucken sucked so far this test.
Help us Obi Wan Conway. You're our only hope !
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@canefan said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@Bones said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@Bones said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
Alright Nigel
Glad you're here. Can you give us a weather report please ?
It's a miracle. I can see the sky.
Hallelujah !!!!!
I mean......fuck !!!
....that's not the only miracle we'll need today.
Too much to ask some of our specialist batters to grow a spine?
Well they've all fucken sucked so far this test.
Help us Obi Wan Conway. You're our only hope !
He looks so out of sync. Nasser broke it down by comparing his Lords double ton innings to now. His prep and footwork are all at sea
@canefan said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@canefan said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@Bones said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@Bones said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
Alright Nigel
Glad you're here. Can you give us a weather report please ?
It's a miracle. I can see the sky.
Hallelujah !!!!!
I mean......fuck !!!
....that's not the only miracle we'll need today.
Too much to ask some of our specialist batters to grow a spine?
Well they've all fucken sucked so far this test.
Help us Obi Wan Conway. You're our only hope !
He looks so out of sync. Nasser broke it down by comparing his Lords double ton innings to now. His prep and footwork are all at sea
Nassar Hussein played close to 100 tests for England as a specialist batsman and averaged 37. He doesn't know shit.
( ok, he is is actually an outstanding pundit to be fair )
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@canefan said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@canefan said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@Bones said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@Bones said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
Alright Nigel
Glad you're here. Can you give us a weather report please ?
It's a miracle. I can see the sky.
Hallelujah !!!!!
I mean......fuck !!!
....that's not the only miracle we'll need today.
Too much to ask some of our specialist batters to grow a spine?
Well they've all fucken sucked so far this test.
Help us Obi Wan Conway. You're our only hope !
He looks so out of sync. Nasser broke it down by comparing his Lords double ton innings to now. His prep and footwork are all at sea
Nassar Hussein played close to 100 tests for England as a specialist batsman and averaged 37. He doesn't know shit.
( ok, he is is actually an outstanding pundit to be fair )
It was a good piece. Devan doesn't get his front foot set early enough, so instead of then stepping into the ball he's still trying to get balanced. Nasser said that's why he can't "locate" the ball. It reminded me of the last time he was out of form in a NZ test series. Just lacking confidence, getting hit or trying not to get hit. Hard hands.
@canefan said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@canefan said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@canefan said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@Bones said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@Bones said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
Alright Nigel
Glad you're here. Can you give us a weather report please ?
It's a miracle. I can see the sky.
Hallelujah !!!!!
I mean......fuck !!!
....that's not the only miracle we'll need today.
Too much to ask some of our specialist batters to grow a spine?
Well they've all fucken sucked so far this test.
Help us Obi Wan Conway. You're our only hope !
He looks so out of sync. Nasser broke it down by comparing his Lords double ton innings to now. His prep and footwork are all at sea
Nassar Hussein played close to 100 tests for England as a specialist batsman and averaged 37. He doesn't know shit.
( ok, he is is actually an outstanding pundit to be fair )
It was a good piece. Devan doesn't get his front foot set early enough, so instead of them stepping into the ball he's still trying to get balanced. Nasser said that's why he can't "locate" the ball. It reminded me of the last time he was out of form in a NZ test series. Just lacking confidence, getting hit or trying not to get hit. Hard hands.
Yeah, one must wonder if the four tons him and Latham ( who has been even more shit ) got vs the Windies at home have flattered to deceive ?
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@canefan said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@canefan said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@canefan said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@Bones said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@Bones said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
Alright Nigel
Glad you're here. Can you give us a weather report please ?
It's a miracle. I can see the sky.
Hallelujah !!!!!
I mean......fuck !!!
....that's not the only miracle we'll need today.
Too much to ask some of our specialist batters to grow a spine?
Well they've all fucken sucked so far this test.
Help us Obi Wan Conway. You're our only hope !
He looks so out of sync. Nasser broke it down by comparing his Lords double ton innings to now. His prep and footwork are all at sea
Nassar Hussein played close to 100 tests for England as a specialist batsman and averaged 37. He doesn't know shit.
( ok, he is is actually an outstanding pundit to be fair )
It was a good piece. Devan doesn't get his front foot set early enough, so instead of them stepping into the ball he's still trying to get balanced. Nasser said that's why he can't "locate" the ball. It reminded me of the last time he was out of form in a NZ test series. Just lacking confidence, getting hit or trying not to get hit. Hard hands.
Yeah, one must wonder if the four tons him and Latham ( who has been even more shit ) got vs the Windies at home have flattered to deceive ?
I think his footwork is generally not strong. Perhaps that's why he never got picked in SA? When his eye is in it covers up the footwork flaws. But when he's not seeing it as well, those lucky inside edges and late shots morph into what we have right now
@canefan said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@canefan said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@canefan said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@canefan said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@Bones said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@Bones said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
Alright Nigel
Glad you're here. Can you give us a weather report please ?
It's a miracle. I can see the sky.
Hallelujah !!!!!
I mean......fuck !!!
....that's not the only miracle we'll need today.
Too much to ask some of our specialist batters to grow a spine?
Well they've all fucken sucked so far this test.
Help us Obi Wan Conway. You're our only hope !
He looks so out of sync. Nasser broke it down by comparing his Lords double ton innings to now. His prep and footwork are all at sea
Nassar Hussein played close to 100 tests for England as a specialist batsman and averaged 37. He doesn't know shit.
( ok, he is is actually an outstanding pundit to be fair )
It was a good piece. Devan doesn't get his front foot set early enough, so instead of them stepping into the ball he's still trying to get balanced. Nasser said that's why he can't "locate" the ball. It reminded me of the last time he was out of form in a NZ test series. Just lacking confidence, getting hit or trying not to get hit. Hard hands.
Yeah, one must wonder if the four tons him and Latham ( who has been even more shit ) got vs the Windies at home have flattered to deceive ?
I think his footwork is generally not strong. Perhaps that's why he never got picked in SA? When his eye is in it covers up the footwork flaws. But when he's not seeing it as well, those lucky inside edges and late shots morph into what we have right now
Without going off topic too much from reading Wags book there was definitely quota systems in place in SA.
I can't think of another nation that has provided more playing talent for other countries.
But yeah, if Conway goes early NZ are absolutely fucked.
I wouldn't be too hard on your batsmen, ours have been just as unconvincing on this pitch. The difference has been those shocking missed catches. If you take even half of those we'd be looking at a totally different picture.
Our batsmen could neither bat nor catch.
Ravindra might need to bowl a bit, because he's a very pedestrian specialist fielder.
If this was any other ground, the two years to redo the block wouldn't be a problem. Anywhere else with this bounce so early would start getting games taken off them
@Donsteppa said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
If this was any other ground, the two years to redo the block wouldn't be a problem. Anywhere else with this bounce so early would start getting games taken off them
From the air that block is huge. Excuse my ignorance, but couldn't they redo half or a third of the block and still play on the remainder?
Quality catch. What a shame, Conway was looking a little better, but never convincing. Punished for playing the ball hard and early. At least he showed some fight
Smith goes. Unlike England on their abortive Ashes tour, I hope our boys don't get golfing days off between tests. Or at least not until they put in a shitload of work before the next match.
Nothing to do now but have a whack
@Donsteppa said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
The nonsense of Philipps batting lower than Blunder continues...
Blundell shouldn't be batting at all!!!
And it's over. We were let down by poor top and middle order batting and poor fielding. All the batters should stay behind and get some net practice. England a little less shit and the pitch was just too poor to deliver a better test match
Flush the dunny and move on as best they can is the only thing they can do.
Does Tickner come in for the second test in the only change given Henry appears rooted ?
Nathan Smith unlucky not to be MOTM. Doesn't always have to come from a winning team and he was brilliant !
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
Nathan Smith
Nathan Smith should not be batting at 8 he is nowhere good enough for that position.
@Chris said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
Nathan Smith
Nathan Smith should not be batting at 8 he is nowhere good enough for that position.
Not much of a test career to sample but a first class average of just under 27 indicates that he is.
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@Chris said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
Nathan Smith
Nathan Smith should not be batting at 8 he is nowhere good enough for that position.
Not much of a test career to sample but a first class average of just under 27 indicates that he is.
Got more than Kane or Ravindra 
Nathan Smith is one of those guys who looks like he has a useful technique but he has no ability to hang around for long periods so it doesn't matter.
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@Chris said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
Nathan Smith
Nathan Smith should not be batting at 8 he is nowhere good enough for that position.
Not much of a test career to sample but a first class average of just under 27 indicates that he is.
Not for me he doesn’t first class average of 27 is poor for a test 8
We've got bigger problems than Smith batting at 8 at the moment. How about the top order batsmen score some runs?
@Chris said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@Chris said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
Nathan Smith
Nathan Smith should not be batting at 8 he is nowhere good enough for that position.
Not much of a test career to sample but a first class average of just under 27 indicates that he is.
Not for me he doesn’t first class average of 27 is poor for a test 8
It's more than Mitchell Starc or Pat Cummins.
Number 8 is the spot where you put the specialist bowler who is the best batsman. Plenty of guys in history have averaged in the high teens ( or in many cases lower ) batting there. Otherwise you put a bits and pieces type player there who might not have made it on bowling alone, fuck that at test level.
But yeah, runs ( or lack of ) from number 8 is pretty low down the list of problems which start from 1-6 from this match.
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@Chris said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@Chris said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
Nathan Smith
Nathan Smith should not be batting at 8 he is nowhere good enough for that position.
Not much of a test career to sample but a first class average of just under 27 indicates that he is.
Not for me he doesn’t first class average of 27 is poor for a test 8
It's more than Mitchell Starc or Pat Cummins.
Number 8 is the spot where you put the specialist bowler who is the best batsman. Plenty of guys in history have averaged in the high teens ( or in many cases lower ) batting there. Otherwise you put a bits and pieces type player there who might not have made it on bowling alone, fuck that at test level.
But yeah, runs ( or lack of ) from number 8 is pretty low down the list of problems which start from 1-6 from this match.
He won’t average 27 in a test match no way he is not a decent enough test bat he is a weakness at 8 .
I think the pitch was the main problem let’s see how we perform in the other test before we bag proven test batsmen.
@Bovidae said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
We've got bigger problems than Smith batting at 8 at the moment. How about the top order batsmen score some runs?
How about we get to bat on a test pitch not that fucking mess which was Lords before we bag proven test players.
@Chris said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@Bovidae said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
We've got bigger problems than Smith batting at 8 at the moment. How about the top order batsmen score some runs?
How about we get to bat on a test pitch not that fucking mess which was Lords before we bag proven test players.
Some of these proven test batsmen haven't scored many runs in recent seasons. There is no time like now to do it.
@Chris said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@Chris said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@Chris said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
Nathan Smith
Nathan Smith should not be batting at 8 he is nowhere good enough for that position.
Not much of a test career to sample but a first class average of just under 27 indicates that he is.
Not for me he doesn’t first class average of 27 is poor for a test 8
It's more than Mitchell Starc or Pat Cummins.
Number 8 is the spot where you put the specialist bowler who is the best batsman. Plenty of guys in history have averaged in the high teens ( or in many cases lower ) batting there. Otherwise you put a bits and pieces type player there who might not have made it on bowling alone, fuck that at test level.
But yeah, runs ( or lack of ) from number 8 is pretty low down the list of problems which start from 1-6 from this match.
He won’t average 27 in a test match no way he is not a decent enough test bat he is a weakness at 8 .
I think the pitch was the main problem let’s see how we perform in the other test before we bag proven test batsmen.
Yeah but more pedigree than Jamieson or Henry who have both batted 8 in tests. You need bowlers in a team, any batting talent is a bonus.
Seems a weird and harsh nitpick for a guy who bowled better than anyone too.
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@Chris said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@Chris said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@Chris said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
Nathan Smith
Nathan Smith should not be batting at 8 he is nowhere good enough for that position.
Not much of a test career to sample but a first class average of just under 27 indicates that he is.
Not for me he doesn’t first class average of 27 is poor for a test 8
It's more than Mitchell Starc or Pat Cummins.
Number 8 is the spot where you put the specialist bowler who is the best batsman. Plenty of guys in history have averaged in the high teens ( or in many cases lower ) batting there. Otherwise you put a bits and pieces type player there who might not have made it on bowling alone, fuck that at test level.
But yeah, runs ( or lack of ) from number 8 is pretty low down the list of problems which start from 1-6 from this match.
He won’t average 27 in a test match no way he is not a decent enough test bat he is a weakness at 8 .
I think the pitch was the main problem let’s see how we perform in the other test before we bag proven test batsmen.Yeah but more pedigree than Jamieson or Henry who have both batted 8 in tests. You need bowlers in a team, any batting talent is a bonus.
Seems a weird and harsh nitpick for a guy who bowled better than anyone too.
We are not talking about his bowling ability are we.
8 is important in test cricket I want a better option there.
@KiwiMurph said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
Nathan Smith is one of those guys who looks like he has a useful technique but he has no ability to hang around for long periods so it doesn't matter.
We've got a bunch of guys that fit that description
@canefan said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@KiwiMurph said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
Nathan Smith is one of those guys who looks like he has a useful technique but he has no ability to hang around for long periods so it doesn't matter.
We'veworld cricket has got a bunch of guys that fit that description
Fixed
@Chris said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@Chris said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@Chris said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@Chris said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
Nathan Smith
Nathan Smith should not be batting at 8 he is nowhere good enough for that position.
Not much of a test career to sample but a first class average of just under 27 indicates that he is.
Not for me he doesn’t first class average of 27 is poor for a test 8
It's more than Mitchell Starc or Pat Cummins.
Number 8 is the spot where you put the specialist bowler who is the best batsman. Plenty of guys in history have averaged in the high teens ( or in many cases lower ) batting there. Otherwise you put a bits and pieces type player there who might not have made it on bowling alone, fuck that at test level.
But yeah, runs ( or lack of ) from number 8 is pretty low down the list of problems which start from 1-6 from this match.
He won’t average 27 in a test match no way he is not a decent enough test bat he is a weakness at 8 .
I think the pitch was the main problem let’s see how we perform in the other test before we bag proven test batsmen.Yeah but more pedigree than Jamieson or Henry who have both batted 8 in tests. You need bowlers in a team, any batting talent is a bonus.
Seems a weird and harsh nitpick for a guy who bowled better than anyone too.
We are not talking about his bowling ability are we.
8 is important in test cricket I want a better option there.
Remind me what position Timmy used to bat?
@mariner4life said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@canefan said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@KiwiMurph said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
Nathan Smith is one of those guys who looks like he has a useful technique but he has no ability to hang around for long periods so it doesn't matter.
We'veworld cricket has got a bunch of guys that fit that descriptionFixed
Blame T20
@Chris said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@Chris said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@Chris said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@Chris said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
Nathan Smith
Nathan Smith should not be batting at 8 he is nowhere good enough for that position.
Not much of a test career to sample but a first class average of just under 27 indicates that he is.
Not for me he doesn’t first class average of 27 is poor for a test 8
It's more than Mitchell Starc or Pat Cummins.
Number 8 is the spot where you put the specialist bowler who is the best batsman. Plenty of guys in history have averaged in the high teens ( or in many cases lower ) batting there. Otherwise you put a bits and pieces type player there who might not have made it on bowling alone, fuck that at test level.
But yeah, runs ( or lack of ) from number 8 is pretty low down the list of problems which start from 1-6 from this match.
He won’t average 27 in a test match no way he is not a decent enough test bat he is a weakness at 8 .
I think the pitch was the main problem let’s see how we perform in the other test before we bag proven test batsmen.Yeah but more pedigree than Jamieson or Henry who have both batted 8 in tests. You need bowlers in a team, any batting talent is a bonus.
Seems a weird and harsh nitpick for a guy who bowled better than anyone too.
We are not talking about his bowling ability are we.
8 is important in test cricket I want a better option there.
Fair enough. Who then ?
Bear in mind with Henry broken and Jamieson and O'Rourke in constant danger of doing so Smith becomes all the more important in the lineup.
@canefan said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@Chris said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@Chris said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@Chris said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@Chris said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
@MN5 said in Black Caps Test Tour to England & Ireland:
Nathan Smith
Nathan Smith should not be batting at 8 he is nowhere good enough for that position.
Not much of a test career to sample but a first class average of just under 27 indicates that he is.
Not for me he doesn’t first class average of 27 is poor for a test 8
It's more than Mitchell Starc or Pat Cummins.
Number 8 is the spot where you put the specialist bowler who is the best batsman. Plenty of guys in history have averaged in the high teens ( or in many cases lower ) batting there. Otherwise you put a bits and pieces type player there who might not have made it on bowling alone, fuck that at test level.
But yeah, runs ( or lack of ) from number 8 is pretty low down the list of problems which start from 1-6 from this match.
He won’t average 27 in a test match no way he is not a decent enough test bat he is a weakness at 8 .
I think the pitch was the main problem let’s see how we perform in the other test before we bag proven test batsmen.Yeah but more pedigree than Jamieson or Henry who have both batted 8 in tests. You need bowlers in a team, any batting talent is a bonus.
Seems a weird and harsh nitpick for a guy who bowled better than anyone too.
We are not talking about his bowling ability are we.
8 is important in test cricket I want a better option there.Remind me what position Timmy used to bat?
To fucking high
To me, that pitch was a piece of shit, The bowlers get a pass for getting out cheap. I would have liked to have seen more fight from the top and middle order. The poor catching in the field is criminal
Between Smith, Jamieson, and Henry we have three guys who would all ideally be at about number ten in a Test batting order.
Batters on Day one struggled with the line, but after that the variable length added too much into the mix.
Fielding has fallen away over the last few years it feels like, mainly accuracy - but effort too at times.
