All Blacks wing options

@Canes4life said in All Blacks wing options:

@reprobate said in All Blacks wing options:

@Canes4life said in All Blacks wing options:

@reprobate said in All Blacks wing options:

@Canes4life said in All Blacks wing options:

@reprobate said in All Blacks wing options:

@Canes4life said in All Blacks wing options:

@reprobate said in All Blacks wing options:

The only question for me is whether Rennie wants a playmaking fullback, in which case we only get two of Jordan/Tangitau/Clarke on the wings.
That wouldn't surprise me give his history - and you do need passers to put those guys into space, you can't just pick a team full of ball runners and go woah this is gonna be awesome (cause it won't be) - but there is undeniably a big 'get your most dangerous attacking players on the field' temptation to have Jordan at fullback with the Calebs.

A lot of the kicking in the backfield will fall on our 10 dropping back but that's not necessarily the end of the world with most of our 10s being comfortable there. Those three players mentioned are not renowned for their kicking.

Yeah, I reckon we do need multiple kicking options - every force-back contest ends up using more than one kicker, so if you have one weak guy you lose those contests - and you don't want all the weight on one guy anyway, especially as Roigard keeps getting injured. The non-fullback way of achieving that is having Jordie at 12, but I think Tupaea has done enough to deserve that jersey.
Jordan is a runner with reasonable size and limited distribution. McKenzie is a playmaker who can run, with a very good boot - but small. Zarn with physical size and the massive boot. Those are the options basically, and they suit three really quite different game plans. Interesting times.

Zarn is so limited and he showed that again over the weekend. Harkin would be the better option if we are going for a kicking fullback that can also attack. McKenzie and Love need to focus on being a 10.

Zarn is limited yes - but he has a bigger boot than anyone else in NZ and is physically the biggest fullback we have - so he provides something different. Whereas for me McKenzie, Jordan and Love can all play Harkin's game as well or better than he can.
Don't get me wrong, he's always been a good player and is having a great year, but so did the likes of Andre Taylor - if he can back it up through the playoffs and next year he might convert me fully - I wouldn't mind him in the great big bok squad as of now, but I wouldn't have him in the 23.

I'd prefer we move Jordie to the back and start Tupaea and Proctor in the centres.

I think Zarn has a better boot, and hits the line quite a bit better than Jordie. Jordie maybe better under the high ball, and is a better passer. Neither are quick, Zarn maybe slightly more evasive. Jordie probably a better defender in the line, though at fullback I'm not sure.

I get that, Jordie can be a giraffe at times and can look horribly uncoordinated. I can't remember what year it was, but when he headbutted the ball that lead to Tupaea scoring, that really sums him up.

Maybe Jordie doesn't even make the 23? Plenty to ponder over the selection table.

Yeah it's an interesting one alright. Jordie does a lot of good stuff - and a bench guy who can play 12 and 15 is pretty useful when the 15 we probably pick can play wing, and the 12 we probably pick can play 13.
But then if Tupaea is the 12, I think it's a fair argument that Jim Tavatavanawai is a better like-for-like if you want to keep the team pattern.

@reprobate said in All Blacks wing options:

@Canes4life said in All Blacks wing options:

@reprobate said in All Blacks wing options:

@Canes4life said in All Blacks wing options:

@reprobate said in All Blacks wing options:

@Canes4life said in All Blacks wing options:

@reprobate said in All Blacks wing options:

@Canes4life said in All Blacks wing options:

@reprobate said in All Blacks wing options:

The only question for me is whether Rennie wants a playmaking fullback, in which case we only get two of Jordan/Tangitau/Clarke on the wings.
That wouldn't surprise me give his history - and you do need passers to put those guys into space, you can't just pick a team full of ball runners and go woah this is gonna be awesome (cause it won't be) - but there is undeniably a big 'get your most dangerous attacking players on the field' temptation to have Jordan at fullback with the Calebs.

A lot of the kicking in the backfield will fall on our 10 dropping back but that's not necessarily the end of the world with most of our 10s being comfortable there. Those three players mentioned are not renowned for their kicking.

Yeah, I reckon we do need multiple kicking options - every force-back contest ends up using more than one kicker, so if you have one weak guy you lose those contests - and you don't want all the weight on one guy anyway, especially as Roigard keeps getting injured. The non-fullback way of achieving that is having Jordie at 12, but I think Tupaea has done enough to deserve that jersey.
Jordan is a runner with reasonable size and limited distribution. McKenzie is a playmaker who can run, with a very good boot - but small. Zarn with physical size and the massive boot. Those are the options basically, and they suit three really quite different game plans. Interesting times.

Zarn is so limited and he showed that again over the weekend. Harkin would be the better option if we are going for a kicking fullback that can also attack. McKenzie and Love need to focus on being a 10.

Zarn is limited yes - but he has a bigger boot than anyone else in NZ and is physically the biggest fullback we have - so he provides something different. Whereas for me McKenzie, Jordan and Love can all play Harkin's game as well or better than he can.
Don't get me wrong, he's always been a good player and is having a great year, but so did the likes of Andre Taylor - if he can back it up through the playoffs and next year he might convert me fully - I wouldn't mind him in the great big bok squad as of now, but I wouldn't have him in the 23.

I'd prefer we move Jordie to the back and start Tupaea and Proctor in the centres.

I think Zarn has a better boot, and hits the line quite a bit better than Jordie. Jordie maybe better under the high ball, and is a better passer. Neither are quick, Zarn maybe slightly more evasive. Jordie probably a better defender in the line, though at fullback I'm not sure.

I get that, Jordie can be a giraffe at times and can look horribly uncoordinated. I can't remember what year it was, but when he headbutted the ball that lead to Tupaea scoring, that really sums him up.

Maybe Jordie doesn't even make the 23? Plenty to ponder over the selection table.

Yeah it's an interesting one alright. Jordie does a lot of good stuff - and a bench guy who can play 12 and 15 is pretty useful when the 15 we probably pick can play wing, and the 12 we probably pick can play 13.
But then if Tupaea is the 12, I think it's a fair argument that Jim Tavatavanawai is a better like-for-like if you want to keep the team pattern.

Jim definitely has the game to get us over the advantage line, but I do question his distribution game. I guess it all comes down to what type of game we want to implement. I mean if we want to go all-out attack then you could pick a pretty interesting backline.

@DurryMexted

Who has the big boot amongst them- in SA we need to exit into their half - we can't just rely on 9 and 10 to do that.

@brodean said in All Blacks wing options:

Moorby is bigger than Tangitau

That would take a fair bit of convincing to get past the eye test.

@Bones said in All Blacks wing options:

@brodean said in All Blacks wing options:

Moorby is bigger than Tangitau

That would take a fair bit of convincing to get past the eye test.

They are listed as pretty much the same height/weight.

@SouthernMann said in All Blacks wing options:

@Bones said in All Blacks wing options:

@brodean said in All Blacks wing options:

Moorby is bigger than Tangitau

That would take a fair bit of convincing to get past the eye test.

They are listed as pretty much the same height/weight.

Yeah so categorically stating bigger seems off. Especially off physical appearance on telly.

@Bones said in All Blacks wing options:

@SouthernMann said in All Blacks wing options:

@Bones said in All Blacks wing options:

@brodean said in All Blacks wing options:

Moorby is bigger than Tangitau

That would take a fair bit of convincing to get past the eye test.

They are listed as pretty much the same height/weight.

Yeah so categorically stating bigger seems off. Especially off physical appearance on telly.

Yeah it is just a nominal amount each way. Moorby slightly taller. Tangitau slightly heavier.

@SouthernMann said in All Blacks wing options:

@Bones said in All Blacks wing options:

@SouthernMann said in All Blacks wing options:

@Bones said in All Blacks wing options:

@brodean said in All Blacks wing options:

Moorby is bigger than Tangitau

That would take a fair bit of convincing to get past the eye test.

They are listed as pretty much the same height/weight.

Yeah so categorically stating bigger seems off. Especially off physical appearance on telly.

Yeah it is just a nominal amount each way. Moorby slightly taller. Tangitau slightly heavier.

@SouthernMann said in All Blacks wing options:

@Bones said in All Blacks wing options:

@SouthernMann said in All Blacks wing options:

@Bones said in All Blacks wing options:

@brodean said in All Blacks wing options:

Moorby is bigger than Tangitau

That would take a fair bit of convincing to get past the eye test.

They are listed as pretty much the same height/weight.

Yeah so categorically stating bigger seems off. Especially off physical appearance on telly.

Yeah it is just a nominal amount each way. Moorby slightly taller. Tangitau slightly heavier.

Yeah depends where you get their weights.

One thing is certain though. Tangitau was named in the starting line up of a SRP team this week while Moorby was deemed surplus to requirements for the Canes 23 in an away game against the 3rd ranked team.

@brodean said in All Blacks wing options:

Moorby wasn't deemed surplus to requirements for the Canes 23 in an away game against the 3rd ranked team.

Come on I'm already confused enough

@Bones said in All Blacks wing options:

@brodean said in All Blacks wing options:

Moorby wasn't deemed surplus to requirements for the Canes 23 in an away game against the 3rd ranked team.

Come on I'm already confused enough

Fixed it. Anyway he should be preferred starter to be an AB contender

@brodean said in All Blacks wing options:

@SouthernMann said in All Blacks wing options:

@Bones said in All Blacks wing options:

@SouthernMann said in All Blacks wing options:

@Bones said in All Blacks wing options:

@brodean said in All Blacks wing options:

Moorby is bigger than Tangitau

That would take a fair bit of convincing to get past the eye test.

They are listed as pretty much the same height/weight.

Yeah so categorically stating bigger seems off. Especially off physical appearance on telly.

Yeah it is just a nominal amount each way. Moorby slightly taller. Tangitau slightly heavier.

@SouthernMann said in All Blacks wing options:

@Bones said in All Blacks wing options:

@SouthernMann said in All Blacks wing options:

@Bones said in All Blacks wing options:

@brodean said in All Blacks wing options:

Moorby is bigger than Tangitau

That would take a fair bit of convincing to get past the eye test.

They are listed as pretty much the same height/weight.

Yeah so categorically stating bigger seems off. Especially off physical appearance on telly.

Yeah it is just a nominal amount each way. Moorby slightly taller. Tangitau slightly heavier.

Yeah depends where you get their weights.

One thing is certain though. Tangitau was named in the starting line up of a SRP team this week while Moorby was deemed surplus to requirements for the Canes 23 in an away game against the 3rd ranked team.

Moorby has a calf injury according to Laidlaw in his press interview,so was rested for that reason.

@Chris said in All Blacks wing options:

@brodean said in All Blacks wing options:

@SouthernMann said in All Blacks wing options:

@Bones said in All Blacks wing options:

@SouthernMann said in All Blacks wing options:

@Bones said in All Blacks wing options:

@brodean said in All Blacks wing options:

Moorby is bigger than Tangitau

That would take a fair bit of convincing to get past the eye test.

They are listed as pretty much the same height/weight.

Yeah so categorically stating bigger seems off. Especially off physical appearance on telly.

Yeah it is just a nominal amount each way. Moorby slightly taller. Tangitau slightly heavier.

@SouthernMann said in All Blacks wing options:

@Bones said in All Blacks wing options:

@SouthernMann said in All Blacks wing options:

@Bones said in All Blacks wing options:

@brodean said in All Blacks wing options:

Moorby is bigger than Tangitau

That would take a fair bit of convincing to get past the eye test.

They are listed as pretty much the same height/weight.

Yeah so categorically stating bigger seems off. Especially off physical appearance on telly.

Yeah it is just a nominal amount each way. Moorby slightly taller. Tangitau slightly heavier.

Yeah depends where you get their weights.

One thing is certain though. Tangitau was named in the starting line up of a SRP team this week while Moorby was deemed surplus to requirements for the Canes 23 in an away game against the 3rd ranked team.

Moorby has a calf injury according to Laidlaw in his press interview,so was rested for that reason.

Fair enough then. He wasn't listed in the injuries on the news release

@Canes4life said in All Blacks wing options:

I'd prefer we move Jordie to the back and start Tupaea and Proctor in the centres.

Proctor has entered the chat.

Proctor played fullback earlier in his career didn't he? No reason he can't play fullback and centre, with Higgins at 12.

Can we maybe have at least one wing that can catch a high-ball?

@jimmyb said in All Blacks wing options:

Can we maybe have at least one wing that can catch a high-ball?

Another vote for Jordie on the wing.

@Bones I swear I’ve seen George Bridge catch a high-ball…

@jimmyb said in All Blacks wing options:

@Bones I swear I’ve seen George Bridge catch a high-ball…

Got a try against the Boks too.

Jonah never got one as every South African munter likes to point out on FB.

Moorby can catch high balls, has a low error rate and is as quick as Ben Smith or Cory Jane. I wouldn't have him as a starter but if you have a wet game in Cape Town and we have been exposed under the high ball in test 1 I think he should come into consideration as an extra FB/14 like Ben smith or Cory Jane. I would give Tangitau first shot in the 14 jersey but I have not seen how good he is under the high ball and the Boks brutalized us there in Wellington 25.

@Canes4life Agreed, he could come on with 25 to go at either 7, 13 or 11 where the need is and create havoc. That's how I would use him.

@Rugbyman said in All Blacks wing options:

Boks brutalized us there in Wellington 25.

With Jordan and Dmac in the back 3 and BB/JB in the five eigths.

Moorby to the rescue.

Tangitau had been tried, his play demands it. So he gets to start at 14 (not sure if he can play 11?)

Jordan, despite his deficiencies, is probably the best running back we have. His try scoring and try assist rate is insane. He’s at either wing or fullback.

The biggest question mark is who’s at 15/11 and 23.

There is only one real realistic new option at 15 and that’s Harkin if Jordan is on the wing. We do not need Dmac the epileptic ferret at 15. That would be a disaster.

Caleb Clarke hasn’t been in great form and the power winger has somewhat fallen out of fashion (with the exception of Ethan Hooker) so not sure he demands a spot but is there a sensible alternative if Jordan is at 15?

Jordie Barrett seems like the logical choice at 23.

So,
11: Jordan/Clarke
14. Tangitau
15: Harkin/Jordan

23: J Barrett

@jimmyb I would go Clarke 11, Tangitau 14 and Jordan 15 with Leicester in 23 jersey to cover wing.

@jimmyb said in All Blacks wing options:

@Bones I swear I’ve seen George Bridge catch a high-ball…

..in a cocktail bar maybe..

I would pick Fehi at 11. Give him a taste of being an AB, and if he turns out to be as good at test level as he is at Super, next year might sort itself out too.

@Rugbyman said in All Blacks wing options:

but if you have a wet game in Cape Town and we have been exposed under the high ball in test 1 I think he should come into consideration

In a wet game in Fiji this year Moorby was the worst player on the field and hugely error prone

@KiwiMurph everyone can have 1 bad game. For the rest of the season he has pretty much been error-free like a Ben smith/Cory Jane type player. I am not saying I would start him ahead of Tangitau but with Narawa barely playing this season I would rank him as the number 2 14 in the squad.

I've just had a bit of fun getting AI to probe through Sir Graham Henry's comments in recent years about current NZ rugby players.

The top three recipients for his praise, according to Chat GTP, have been Ardie Savea, Will Jordan and Cam Roigard.

@sparky at least it'sdnot Beauden Barrett

@Frank so should Reiko he will be there.

@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks wing options:

I would pick Fehi at 11. Give him a taste of being an AB, and if he turns out to be as good at test level as he is at Super, next year might sort itself out too.

I don't reckon. His play undoubtedly deserves it, but when you have guys like Clarke and Jordan who are world class, why should they miss out? And Tangitau who is amazing - but raw and has a bit to learn, surely it's better to give him that time in the jersey?
Maybe in the squad to give him a taste of what he's missing, but I don't see the point really. Giving LF game time there with specific targets on improving his defensive positioning and ball security would have more value, or even a Tupaea/Proctor/Lennox to increase our injury cover options and ability to have a 6-2 bench.
Unless there's a way out of the Newcastle deal of course, that would change things entirely.

@Rugbyman said in All Blacks wing options:

@KiwiMurph everyone can have 1 bad game. For the rest of the season he has pretty much been error-free like a Ben smith/Cory Jane type player. I am not saying I would start him ahead of Tangitau but with Narawa barely playing this season I would rank him as the number 2 14 in the squad.

Will Jordan is a pretty decent 14 too....

@Old-Alleynians said in All Blacks wing options:

@DurryMexted

Who has the big boot amongst them- in SA we need to exit into their half - we can't just rely on 9 and 10 to do that.

Yeah thats the big issue - Clarke and Jordan can thump it but not sure you can call it tactical

@george33 said in All Blacks wing options:

@Frank so should Reiko he will be there.

88 caps for the Allblacks and people still cant spell his first name correctly.

I do think Moorby will be in the discussions purely on the basis that he is the 2nd highest try scorer in the comp. He might be selected in the squad on that basis and because he covers fullback.

He has made more carries than any other player.

Back three carries:
100 Josh Moorby
92 Fehi Fineanganofo
88 Jacob Ratumaitavuki Kneepkens
78 Leroy Carter
76 Caleb Clarke
76 Will Jordan
76 Callum Harkin
72 Caleb Tangitau

Clean Breaks Per Carry
0.25 Caleb Tangitau
0.23 Kyren Taumoefolau
0.21 Fehi Fineanganofo
0.17 Will Jordan
0.17 Caleb Clarke
0.13 Josh Moorby
0.1 Leroy Carter
0.05 Jacob Ratumaitavuki Kneepkens

So the Canes use their back 3 to attack a lot more than the other teams.

Tackle Percentage
85% Leroy Carter
83% Caleb Clarke
83% Kyren Taumoefolau
82% Will Jordan
79% Caleb Tangitau
76% Josh Moorby
72% Fehi Fineanganofo
70% Jacob Ratumaitavuki Kneepkens

@brodean I don't see it eh, good player but we have better starting options at wing and fullback, and would be better off using a development slot for a Taumoefolau or maybe even Hutchinson.

@reprobate said in All Blacks wing options:

@brodean I don't see it eh, good player but we have better starting options at wing and fullback, and would be better off using a development slot for a Taumoefolau or maybe even Hutchinson.

I agree. I think he's benefited by being on the end of the Canes backline but I still think the selectors will talk about him.

Taumoefolau is not eligible until October.

If Tangitau is out long term (fingers crossed somehow he isnt) I wonder if Jordan to 14 really picks up steam

@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks wing options:

If Tangitau is out long term (fingers crossed somehow he isnt) I wonder if Jordan to 14 really picks up steam

Which in turn really makes the end of the season interesting for Sullivan/Harkin (and maybe even Hutchinson).