FIFA World Cup

@KiwiPie said in FIFA World Cup:

Up to the first goal, England looked bigger, faster and stronger - then decided to play a game where none of those things matter. Not only did they park the bus, but they just let Argentina play to work openings. And one thing this Argentinian team can do is be methodical when they are trying to prise a defence apart. England bullied Messi at times but he notched up 2 assists.

Third time in recent years England have gone 1-0 up in a major game like this and lost 2-1 by going too defensive too early.

2018 WC semi final against Croatia.
2021 Euro Final against Italy.
2026 WC Semi Final against Argentina.

said in FIFA World Cup:

Up to the first goal, England looked bigger, faster and stronger - then decided to play a game where none of those things matter. Not only did they park the bus, but they just let Argentina play to work openings. And one thing this Argentinian team can do is be methodical when they are trying to prise a defence apart. England bullied Messi at times but he notched up 2 assists.

Alternative reading of the match is that the niggly fouls of the first half were designed to fire England up and get them running around like idiots (and it did). Meaning that in the important parts of the game in the second half, their key players had nothing more to give - and Tuchel didn't replace them because they are his key players.

@KiwiPie said in FIFA World Cup:

said in FIFA World Cup:

Up to the first goal, England looked bigger, faster and stronger - then decided to play a game where none of those things matter. Not only did they park the bus, but they just let Argentina play to work openings. And one thing this Argentinian team can do is be methodical when they are trying to prise a defence apart. England bullied Messi at times but he notched up 2 assists.

Alternative reading of the match is that the niggly fouls of the first half were designed to fire England up and get them running around like idiots (and it did). Meaning that in the important parts of the game in the second half, their key players had nothing more to give - and Tuchel didn't replace them because they are his key players.

100%. England gave Argentine the EXACT game the Argentines wanted.

First half full of hacking and niggle which the Argentines absolutely thrive on. Result is that England expend an incredible amount of energy (emotional and physical) engaging in these tit for tat antics.

Take the lead but instead of keeping their foot on the gas they relent and hand all the initiative to Argentina by going ultra defensive. The Argentines fully believe in their ability to get back into the game and England give them all the time, possession and opportunity to do exactly that.

Tuchel needed to bring on fresh legs and pacy wingers and just keep Argentina on the back foot or at least give them reason to worry about counter attacks. Asking defenders to play hard D for 90 minutes is dumb AF when you have guys like Rashford rotting away on the bench barely getting 5 mins when it's too late.

@nonpartizan talk about not playing to your strengths

England would have been better off flooding the middle of the pitch with midfielders and trying to disrupt Argentina. Letting Messi assist on both goals is shocking, he's their danger man

@canefan said in FIFA World Cup:

@nonpartizan talk about not playing to your strengths

Yup. It was a coaching disaster class.

Look at the second goal, Messi beat Spence on the outside and his cross found Martinez with Stones not quite able to get his head on the ball.

By that point in the match Spence and Stones had played 85 mins, Martinez had been on the pitch for less than 10 minutes and Messi was of course throughout the match conserving his energy. Fresh attackers v tired defenders creates an inevitable bad outcome.

@nonpartizan said in FIFA World Cup:

@canefan said in FIFA World Cup:

@nonpartizan talk about not playing to your strengths

Yup. It was a coaching disaster class.

Look at the second goal, Messi beat Spence on the outside and his cross found Martinez with Stones not quite able to get his head on the ball.

By that point in the match Spence and Stones had played 85 mins, Martinez had been on the pitch for less than 10 minutes and Messi was of course throughout the match conserving his energy. Fresh attackers v tired defenders creates an inevitable bad outcome.

@nonpartizan said in FIFA World Cup:

@canefan said in FIFA World Cup:

@nonpartizan talk about not playing to your strengths

Yup. It was a coaching disaster class.

Look at the second goal, Messi beat Spence on the outside and his cross found Martinez with Stones not quite able to get his head on the ball.

By that point in the match Spence and Stones had played 85 mins, Martinez had been on the pitch for less than 10 minutes and Messi was of course throughout the match conserving his energy. Fresh attackers v tired defenders creates an inevitable bad outcome.

Even before ARG scored the signs were that ENG were barely hanging on. Argentina had more or less emptied the bench, their subs seemed more impactful. Tuchel may well get fired for this. He will only have himself to blame

@canefan said in FIFA World Cup:

@nonpartizan said in FIFA World Cup:

@canefan said in FIFA World Cup:

@nonpartizan talk about not playing to your strengths

Yup. It was a coaching disaster class.

Look at the second goal, Messi beat Spence on the outside and his cross found Martinez with Stones not quite able to get his head on the ball.

By that point in the match Spence and Stones had played 85 mins, Martinez had been on the pitch for less than 10 minutes and Messi was of course throughout the match conserving his energy. Fresh attackers v tired defenders creates an inevitable bad outcome.

@nonpartizan said in FIFA World Cup:

@canefan said in FIFA World Cup:

@nonpartizan talk about not playing to your strengths

Yup. It was a coaching disaster class.

Look at the second goal, Messi beat Spence on the outside and his cross found Martinez with Stones not quite able to get his head on the ball.

By that point in the match Spence and Stones had played 85 mins, Martinez had been on the pitch for less than 10 minutes and Messi was of course throughout the match conserving his energy. Fresh attackers v tired defenders creates an inevitable bad outcome.

Even before ARG scored the signs were that ENG were barely hanging on. Argentina had more or less emptied the bench, their subs seemed more impactful. Tuchel may well get fired for this. He will only have himself to blame

Yeah. By the time the equaliser was scored it had already been on the cards for like 10 minutes.

The ridiculous part of that goal was that England had 10 men (including the keeper) behind the ball when Fernandez shot but other than Bellinghams belated attempt at closing him down he had all the time and space to fire off a shot. The spacing of the defence was non existent, they were all in a line.

Honestly, when it comes to subs and in game adjustments (or lack thereof) it's hard to think of a more poorly coached match. Anything would have been better than what Tuchel actually did.

@nonpartizan said in FIFA World Cup:

@canefan said in FIFA World Cup:

@nonpartizan said in FIFA World Cup:

@canefan said in FIFA World Cup:

@nonpartizan talk about not playing to your strengths

Yup. It was a coaching disaster class.

Look at the second goal, Messi beat Spence on the outside and his cross found Martinez with Stones not quite able to get his head on the ball.

By that point in the match Spence and Stones had played 85 mins, Martinez had been on the pitch for less than 10 minutes and Messi was of course throughout the match conserving his energy. Fresh attackers v tired defenders creates an inevitable bad outcome.

@nonpartizan said in FIFA World Cup:

@canefan said in FIFA World Cup:

@nonpartizan talk about not playing to your strengths

Yup. It was a coaching disaster class.

Look at the second goal, Messi beat Spence on the outside and his cross found Martinez with Stones not quite able to get his head on the ball.

By that point in the match Spence and Stones had played 85 mins, Martinez had been on the pitch for less than 10 minutes and Messi was of course throughout the match conserving his energy. Fresh attackers v tired defenders creates an inevitable bad outcome.

Even before ARG scored the signs were that ENG were barely hanging on. Argentina had more or less emptied the bench, their subs seemed more impactful. Tuchel may well get fired for this. He will only have himself to blame

Yeah. By the time the equaliser was scored it had already been on the cards for like 10 minutes.

The ridiculous part of that goal was that England had 10 men (including the keeper) behind the ball when Fernandez shot but other than Bellinghams belated attempt at closing him down he had all the time and space to fire off a shot. The spacing of the defence was non existent, they were all in a line.

Honestly, when it comes to subs and in game adjustments (or lack thereof) it's hard to think of a more poorly coached match. Anything would have been better than what Tuchel actually did.

The guy basically had a free hit, and he responded with a corker of a shot. I understand them trying to play behind the ball, but why not press out hard in the defensive third of the field and look for another counterattack goal? Sitting back giving that team time and space was asking to be punished

It's not a world cup until the fans have a breakdown because their team parked the bus and tried to hold onto a 1-0 lead. Glorious.

Argentina are a weird team. They never quite manage to be favourites, yet they're in their 3 WC final in their last 4 attempts.

They get into a bunch of shithousery but I like the Argentinians. Don't even really know why, since they're one of the most successful teams.

Messi went from being criticised for not being able to win international titles - evenly briefly retiring in about 2018 or so - to now being on the cusp of being in the extremely exclusive club of back-to-back winners.

Spain are deserved favourites though.

Very disappointing way to end a fantastic tournament for England. I don't understand the thinking behind defending a 1-0 lead at all, in my mind getting the first goal should give you a bit more freedom to open things up and go for a 2nd which is a long way back for the other team. Shutting up shop at 1-0 up just seems to invite the other side back onto it regardless of who is playing.

@westie_boy said in FIFA World Cup:

Tuchel went all in on defending for 20 mins, and when Argentina equalised the game was over.
Watching bbc Tuchel is getting slatted and rightly so.
Tuchel gave messi a free ride in the last 20, because of the England changes, messi had all the time in the world to do his thing.

yeah kind of weird ending

the argies had anly attackers on the field . . . defending
and england had only defenders on the field . . . attacking

incredible mental strength by argentina
loved it

the poms played the scoreboard a bit too much
i'm not guna slag them off for that
it's a WC semi, and you have the lead deep in the second half
it nearly worked
england to sit back after they scored first, and get a second on the break to finish the game off, was the right call IMO
england had the players to easily do that
and probably would have against most other teams
but the argies changed gears and went to work after they went behind, and were too good for them
that's big game temperament for you, very very big game temperament

the way the game played out was the type of scenario i fully expected
and expect more of the same in the next game
try not to fuck up early, then rev it up in the second half, and win it
especially against a team like the passer/pressers

and I hope the south americans do it again on the weekend, against the euros
fuck the euros

thought both teams put the frenchies to shame a bit
both fought it out to the end
the frenchies just kinda sooked and sulked it, when they weren't permitted to play it how they wanted too

@mohikamo I have no problem with England being defensive. But they went way too far back, and failed to mount any sort of press. Argentina were able to work it around with almost no fear of being turned over and attacked on the counter

It was almost as if Tuchel hadn’t watched any of Argentina’s matches at this WC

Terrible coaching

P45 pronto

There's going defensive, and then there's that. All England did was try and clog up the penalty area. No point having a back 6 when a lot of the threats ended up coming from the middle of the park where England were sacrificing space and players there whoch MacAllister and Fernandez took with both hands. Height kept getting mentioned with England, but it got taken out of the equation with Argentina's small men getting infront of the big English defenders with Messi putting his crosses lower (apart from the last goal).

None of these English defenders would have ever played in a 6 man backline, which would have led to a lot of confusion out there amonst the players. Maybe a 5 man, which is rare enough in itself, but more often than not, there's protection infront of them (defensive midfielders).

It's a real shame that England's best chance of winning was abandoned just when they needed it most.

The Mexico match will be remembered when the dust settles but if they'd worked on their first outing we could easily have seen England outplay and outscore Argentina last night.

Like late era McCaw, Montana, Brady or so many Australian Cricket captains, where the incredible advantage of a 39 year old Leo Messi is the clarity of his decision-making at the end of a match when everyone's exhausted.

Losing is one thing. Losing like that is quite another. Better to go down swinging

@canefan said in FIFA World Cup:

Losing is one thing. Losing like that is quite another. Better to go down swinging

The stats will show England were 10 mins or so from going to the WC final

The reality is it could easily have been 4-1 (2 shots against the post) and arguably 6-1 (two open goals missed).

The better, better coached, smarter team won.

@canefan said in FIFA World Cup:

I have no problem with England being defensive. But they went way too far back, and failed to mount any sort of press. Argentina were able to work it around with almost no fear of being turned over and attacked on the counter

yep
the strategy was right but tuchel fucked up by changing the teams basic structure
that reduced the counter attack opportunities
(and the ability to go for a winner, if they conceded)
if he felt the need to make changes (fatigue) then it should have been like for like

you have to say that was a bit of a mental fade (panic) by tuchel
the status quo was fine (scoreboard and team structure)), he didn't really have to change anything

argentina on the other hand had to change everything, and did so
so not putting it all on tuchel
scaloni fed more and more attacking players into the game
which actually became a problem for him after they took the lead
argentina then sat back on D themselves for the last ten minutes, with hardly any defending type players on the pitch

but by then both teams were organisationally a bit of a shambles
tuchel brought tony and rashford on, but it was too late

england outdone in the mental game by argentina
not unexpected
classic game of soccer really

Well I caved in and decided to watch the game, then caved in again 5 minutes after we scored and went to bed. It was atypical England strategy: cede the midfield, defend far too deep and don't pressure the opposition. When will we learn that this rarely works at this level? Never is my guess. Manager after manager has reverted to mean over the years and this is part of the reason I find watching England play footie so boring and frustrating.

@mohikamo said in FIFA World Cup:

@canefan said in FIFA World Cup:

I have no problem with England being defensive. But they went way too far back, and failed to mount any sort of press. Argentina were able to work it around with almost no fear of being turned over and attacked on the counter

yep
the strategy was right but tuchel fucked up by changing the teams basic structure
that reduced the counter attack opportunities
(and the ability to go for a winner, if they conceded)
if he felt the need to make changes (fatigue) then it should have been like for like

you have to say that was a bit of a mental fade (panic) by tuchel
the status quo was fine (scoreboard and team structure)), he didn't really have to change anything

argentina on the other hand had to change everything, and did so
so not putting it all on tuchel
scaloni fed more and more attacking players into the game
which actually became a problem for him after they took the lead
argentina then sat back on D themselves for the last ten minutes, with hardly any defending type players on the pitch

but by then both teams were organisationally a bit of a shambles
tuchel brought tony and rashford on, but it was too late

england outdone in the mental game by argentina
not unexpected
classic game of soccer really

Tuchel was dumb in how he subbed. Not just in the profile of player he did (or did not) bring on but also in his timing.

Scaloni had made his 5th substitute before Tuchel had made his second. Tuchel made his fourth and fifth after falling behind 2-1. Classic case of a reactive rather than proactive approach to substituting.

He essentially asked his starting 11 to do too much work.

By my calculations Argentina got about 90 minutes of game time from their subs, England got less than half of that.

@nonpartizan said in FIFA World Cup:

Classic case of a reactive rather than proactive approach to substituting.

yep
was guna put the reactive bit in there
tuchel kinda went into panic mode
scaloni was cool calm and calculating
and ratcheted up the pressure

@Catogrande said in FIFA World Cup:

Well I caved in and decided to watch the game, then caved in again 5 minutes after we scored and went to bed. It was atypical England strategy: cede the midfield, defend far too deep and don't pressure the opposition. When will we learn that this rarely works at this level? Never is my guess. Manager after manager has reverted to mean over the years and this is part of the reason I find watching England play footie so boring and frustrating.

I don't think the media hype around the England football team helps them at all. So much bluster and bollocks.

Best way forwards for them would be to learn from Clive Woodward's manta and to Think Correctly Under Pressure.

@Catogrande said in FIFA World Cup:

Well I caved in and decided to watch the game, then caved in again 5 minutes after we scored and went to bed. It was atypical England strategy: cede the midfield, defend far too deep and don't pressure the opposition. When will we learn that this rarely works at this level? Never is my guess. Manager after manager has reverted to mean over the years and this is part of the reason I find watching England play footie so boring and frustrating.

You went to bed with 30 minutes left in a WC Semi with your team leading 1-0?

Extraordinary!

@canefan said in FIFA World Cup:

@mohikamo I have no problem with England being defensive. But they went way too far back, and failed to mount any sort of press. Argentina were able to work it around with almost no fear of being turned over and attacked on the counter

Even watching the highlights only, the amount of time they gave to Messi on the ball to get in those dangerous crosses was baffling.

@sparky said in FIFA World Cup:

@Catogrande said in FIFA World Cup:

Well I caved in and decided to watch the game, then caved in again 5 minutes after we scored and went to bed. It was atypical England strategy: cede the midfield, defend far too deep and don't pressure the opposition. When will we learn that this rarely works at this level? Never is my guess. Manager after manager has reverted to mean over the years and this is part of the reason I find watching England play footie so boring and frustrating.

I don't think the media hype around the England football team helps them at all. So much bluster and bollocks.

Best way forwards for them would be to learn from Clive Woodward's manta and to Think Correctly Under Pressure.

It comes with the extremely highly paid job.

The office consensus is one of acceptance as Argies were better and deserved it.

It’s always a good run supporting them until the inevitable!

@MiketheSnow said in FIFA World Cup:

View image

Something else I was thinking about was how no Man U or Liverpool players were in the England starting XI.

@voodoo said in FIFA World Cup:

@Catogrande said in FIFA World Cup:

Well I caved in and decided to watch the game, then caved in again 5 minutes after we scored and went to bed. It was atypical England strategy: cede the midfield, defend far too deep and don't pressure the opposition. When will we learn that this rarely works at this level? Never is my guess. Manager after manager has reverted to mean over the years and this is part of the reason I find watching England play footie so boring and frustrating.

You went to bed with 30 minutes left in a WC Semi with your team leading 1-0?

Extraordinary!

Yes that's the sad part about it but I didn't want to see the inevitable unfold. Again.

Anyone watching the worthless playoff for 3rd?
England doing a Germany v Brazil 2014 at the moment
Almost halftime and are up 4-0

England trashing France 4-0 in the world's most pointless game.

England look like men unburdened now they aren't playing with the weight of history of their shoulders. France look like they've been smoking fags and drinking vin rogue for four days.

@Virgil France look like they've downed the tools. I know neither team wants to play this game but you can't help but think how badly Tuchel set his team up all tournament. England have so many good attacking players yet they never really got the opportunity to show it.

Imagine Rashford replacing Gordon against Argentina? You could still put everyone behind the ball but at least you still have the outlet for quick transitions and an opportunity for goals.

@Fale009 Or Kane who was probably injured.

Perhaps England weren't that bad? And Argentina put perhaps one of the cleverest performances of all time to frustrate them?

@sparky I would still keep Kane on cause his range of passing is perfect for counter attack play. If he were injured then definitely.

@sparky said in FIFA World Cup:

Perhaps England weren't that bad? And Argentina put perhaps one of the cleverest performances of all time to frustrate them?

Both can be true?

France get 2 back in the first 10 minutes of the second half. England looking leggy already. 4-2.