It's going to be make or break for the Springboks. Most of them will remember the previous test at Mount Smart. The All Blacks challenge will put some spring in that old age Springboks step.
All Blacks
Match thread
Springboks I
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@canefan said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
We are playing so much worse than the sum of our parts. If we could just play with a little more intelligence, cohesion, and some more aggression we could do okay. Oh and catch some high balls
Therein lies the problem.
Like the worst days of Fozzie. This side is a pale imitation of what it should be with the players available.
Maybe it isn't all down to the coaching staff and there's other, deeper factors involved which have surfaced in the last 8-10 years?
Both things can be true.
There are bigger issues at play than just the coaches
Some of these coaches look out of their depth.
Moor, Plumtree weren't up to it and were rightly punted.
Some of these coaches should be headed for the same treatment.
Holland must be under pressure?
As much as I'd like to see certain changes in the backline, I'm not expecting it to happen. Robertson seems like more of a motivator than coach - he leaves the coaching up to the other guys. At the Crusaders, with the majority of the side All Blacks, he could motivate the players to play to their ability and that'd do the job against a side with a handful of internationals. But when the playing field is even and the opposition is just as motivated, you need ruthless systems. Right now, the team doesn’t look like they have them.
The motivator vs coach idea also fits with the way he tries to be mates with the players and the cheesy “walk together” stuff, which is less like strategy and more like a way to keep them onside so he can fire them up. That might explain his reluctance to drop senior guys too. He sees the level they've played to in the past and thinks he can motivate them to play to that level. It works when you’ve got the best squad in the comp, but at test level sentiment can’t come before standards.
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
As much as I'd like to see certain changes in the backline, I'm not expecting it to happen. Robertson seems like more of a motivator than coach - he leaves the coaching up to the other guys. At the Crusaders, with the majority of the side All Blacks, he could motivate the players to play to their ability and that'd do the job against a side with a handful of internationals. But when the playing field is even and the opposition is just as motivated, you need ruthless systems. Right now, the team doesn’t look like they have them.
The motivator vs coach idea also fits with the way he tries to be mates with the players and the cheesy “walk together” stuff, which is less like strategy and more like a way to keep them onside so he can fire them up. That might explain his reluctance to drop senior guys too. He sees the level they've played to in the past and thinks he can motivate them to play to that level. It works when you’ve got the best squad in the comp, but at test level sentiment can’t come before standards.
Ignores the fact that most of the crusaders he coached were home grown talent that he fostered and coached to all black standard. It’s absolute crap. He made them the best squad in the comp and frequently got a back line and forward pack to equal more than the sum of their parts. All those crusaders, particularly the last 2-3 championships were entirely Robertson coached players.
@ShaquilleOatmeal that's my impression too. He certainly doesn't come across as a deep thinker of the game and if he is in fact leaving the coaching to his assistants, that would explain why they seem so disjointed on the field - a lack of overarching strategy and knowledge of what is the next likely play.
When confronted with an actual question his facial expressions suggest - like most people less endowed with intellect - he's taking it personally rather than welcoming the perspective permitting further analysis.
His shtick was clearly well suited to a high performing club scenario where he had an array of All Blacks setting expectations and excellent assistants. Outside of Jason Ryan the last doesn't apply to my mind. Holland and Hansen should be charged with fraud. It is unfathomable that a coach could take these players and make them less than the sum of their parts.
@jimmyb said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
As much as I'd like to see certain changes in the backline, I'm not expecting it to happen. Robertson seems like more of a motivator than coach - he leaves the coaching up to the other guys. At the Crusaders, with the majority of the side All Blacks, he could motivate the players to play to their ability and that'd do the job against a side with a handful of internationals. But when the playing field is even and the opposition is just as motivated, you need ruthless systems. Right now, the team doesn’t look like they have them.
The motivator vs coach idea also fits with the way he tries to be mates with the players and the cheesy “walk together” stuff, which is less like strategy and more like a way to keep them onside so he can fire them up. That might explain his reluctance to drop senior guys too. He sees the level they've played to in the past and thinks he can motivate them to play to that level. It works when you’ve got the best squad in the comp, but at test level sentiment can’t come before standards.
Ignores the fact that most of the crusaders he coached were home grown talent that he fostered and coached to all black standard. It’s absolute crap. He made them the best squad in the comp and frequently got a back line and forward pack to equal more than the sum of their parts. All those crusaders, particularly the last 2-3 championships were entirely Robertson coached players.
So I guess two questions in response
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Where is this for the ABs? I'm not seeing an integrated machine where people know their roles like you saw for the Crusaders.
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How does Rob Penney's success play into that? How much is Canterbury admin/systems/academy and how much is coaching? They did incredibly well to win the comp this year (if handed home advantage by the Blues) but with an average squad. Is Rob an incredible coach like Razor? Or is there more out there?
@nzzp said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@jimmyb said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
As much as I'd like to see certain changes in the backline, I'm not expecting it to happen. Robertson seems like more of a motivator than coach - he leaves the coaching up to the other guys. At the Crusaders, with the majority of the side All Blacks, he could motivate the players to play to their ability and that'd do the job against a side with a handful of internationals. But when the playing field is even and the opposition is just as motivated, you need ruthless systems. Right now, the team doesn’t look like they have them.
The motivator vs coach idea also fits with the way he tries to be mates with the players and the cheesy “walk together” stuff, which is less like strategy and more like a way to keep them onside so he can fire them up. That might explain his reluctance to drop senior guys too. He sees the level they've played to in the past and thinks he can motivate them to play to that level. It works when you’ve got the best squad in the comp, but at test level sentiment can’t come before standards.
Ignores the fact that most of the crusaders he coached were home grown talent that he fostered and coached to all black standard. It’s absolute crap. He made them the best squad in the comp and frequently got a back line and forward pack to equal more than the sum of their parts. All those crusaders, particularly the last 2-3 championships were entirely Robertson coached players.
So I guess two questions in response
Where is this for the ABs? I'm not seeing an integrated machine where people know their roles like you saw for the Crusaders.
How does Rob Penney's success play into that? How much is Canterbury admin/systems/academy and how much is coaching? They did incredibly well to win the comp this year (if handed home advantage by the Blues) but with an average squad. Is Rob an incredible coach like Razor? Or is there more out there?
I’d say:
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The rot in the ABs has been around for a long time and I suspect the likes of B Barrett, Savea, ALB, McKenzie are next to uncoachable. Have a single one of them shown any improvement at all in the past 3-4 years? The rest have had their development years under sub standard coaching in the super rugby system. Those middle championships before and during Covid, the crusaders were basically taking the piss out of those other teams. Robertson consistently embarrassed established ABs with simple game plans. So now he has to trust those players (Barrett, McKenzie, Savea) to lead his ABs team? I think he’s been way too slow to throw the baby out with the bath water and that is his biggest failure. But to say he can’t coach and develop players from the ground up ignores the amazing players he’s coached (T Williams, Taylor, Newell, Jordan, Mounga, Reece (at the start)) as well as the dog shite players he’s created maximum value from.
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The squad is and now largely established. Most decent coaches could win a championship with that team. But Robertson created that squad from the ground up. You can’t take that away from him. In 2016, he lost all the Crusaders ABs. Two years later, he never loses again. Penny couldn’t do the same.
@jimmyb I guess what I struggle with is 'he created all these players and built a fantastic team' and 'the current players are shit but he won't drop them'. Feels like both shouldn't be true at the same time - if he is as good at developing players as claimed, surely he'd either coach these players to be better - or drop them.
I still sheet our issues back to Super getting too big, the quality plummetting and (in my opinion) not preparing players for Tests that well any more.
@nzzp said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@jimmyb I guess what I struggle with is 'he created all these players and built a fantastic team' and 'the current players are shit but he won't drop them'. Feels like both shouldn't be true at the same time - if he is as good at developing players as claimed, surely he'd either coach these players to be better - or drop them.
I still sheet our issues back to Super getting too big, the quality plummetting and (in my opinion) not preparing players for Tests that well any more.
He needs to drop them. Should have happened last year. He hasn’t been brave enough with his selections. But every young player that’s come into the ABs set up and has received coaching, is looking that much better for it.
No one can tell me that DMac is literally uncoachable. He hasn’t improved a single facet of his game for 4 years. Ditto with B Barrett and Savea.
@jimmyb said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
The rot in the ABs has been around for a long time and I suspect the likes of B Barrett, Savea, ALB, McKenzie are next to uncoachable. Have a single one of them shown any improvement at all in the past 3-4 years? The rest have had their development years under sub standard coaching in the super rugby system. Those middle championships before and during Covid, the crusaders were basically taking the piss out of those other teams. Robertson consistently embarrassed established ABs with simple game plans. So now he has to trust those players (Barrett, McKenzie, Savea) to lead his ABs team? I think he’s been way too slow to throw the baby out with the bath water and that is his biggest failure.
How does that make sense?
- He's an awesome coach.
- Selects players.
- Can't coach them.
@Tim said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
Best loose forward in NZ, has been dumped. Dalton Papalii. Would actually win rucks against big teams like SA.
Guess we just need shit players who failed against the Brumbies.
NZ loves to promote dumb people. "Razor" can't even read. Par for the course.
It boggles my mind that Dalton is not even in the squad. Picking Kirifi ahead of him is such clear evidence that Razor has no idea what he's doing at test level.
@jimmyb said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
As much as I'd like to see certain changes in the backline, I'm not expecting it to happen. Robertson seems like more of a motivator than coach - he leaves the coaching up to the other guys. At the Crusaders, with the majority of the side All Blacks, he could motivate the players to play to their ability and that'd do the job against a side with a handful of internationals. But when the playing field is even and the opposition is just as motivated, you need ruthless systems. Right now, the team doesn’t look like they have them.
The motivator vs coach idea also fits with the way he tries to be mates with the players and the cheesy “walk together” stuff, which is less like strategy and more like a way to keep them onside so he can fire them up. That might explain his reluctance to drop senior guys too. He sees the level they've played to in the past and thinks he can motivate them to play to that level. It works when you’ve got the best squad in the comp, but at test level sentiment can’t come before standards.
Ignores the fact that most of the crusaders he coached were home grown talent that he fostered and coached to all black standard. It’s absolute crap. He made them the best squad in the comp and frequently got a back line and forward pack to equal more than the sum of their parts. All those crusaders, particularly the last 2-3 championships were entirely Robertson coached players.
Maybe I should have said All Blacks or players with potential to be All Blacks. The Crusaders have the best production line in NZ rugby. They're are better than every other Super Rugby team when it comes to early talent identification, recruitment, culture and mentorship and player retention. He had a lot more talent available to him than he would've had at another team. The players might not have been All Blacks when Robertson began coaching them and, yes, he played a part in getting them there, but they had the potential and the ability to play to a higher level than the players at other teams.
@OomPB said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
It's going to be make or break for the Springboks. Most of them will remember the previous test at Mount Smart. The All Blacks challenge will put some spring in that old age Springboks step.
It's going to be an absolute cracker. Both sides have dropped games they will think they should not have, so have plenty to prove already. Add the Eden Park record and the fact the Championship is very much on the line given results to date, she will be all on. There's not many sporting events I look forward to more than a test against the old foe.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
It's going to be an absolute cracker.
I hope so but based on the Argie game we have 2 weeks to learn to pass, catch and kick. Given that we seem to lack the ability to even learn the laws (or at least obey them) it seems unlikely that we will achieve even one of those.
On the upside the haka was quite good, and about the only time we showed any coordination at all.
@Snowy said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
It's going to be an absolute cracker.
I hope so but based on the Argie game we have 2 weeks to learn to pass, catch and kick. Given that we seem to lack the ability to even learn the laws (or at least obey them) it seems unlikely that we will achieve even one of those.
On the upside the haka was quite good, and about the only time we showed any coordination at all.
Sounds like the Kiwis of old
@jimmyb said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@nzzp said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@jimmyb I guess what I struggle with is 'he created all these players and built a fantastic team' and 'the current players are shit but he won't drop them'. Feels like both shouldn't be true at the same time - if he is as good at developing players as claimed, surely he'd either coach these players to be better - or drop them.
I still sheet our issues back to Super getting too big, the quality plummetting and (in my opinion) not preparing players for Tests that well any more.
He needs to drop them. Should have happened last year. He hasn’t been brave enough with his selections. But every young player that’s come into the ABs set up and has received coaching, is looking that much better for it.
No one can tell me that DMac is literally uncoachable. He hasn’t improved a single facet of his game for 4 years. Ditto with B Barrett and Savea.
is or isn't?
4 years ago McKenzie was a sideways running fullback who relied entirely on his own evasive abilities. He's changed heaps in that time, turning into the best 10 in Super rugby. People talking about him and Barrett as if they are the same are just wrong.
@Snowy said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
I hope so but based on the Argie game we have 2 weeks to learn to pass, catch and kick. Given that we seem to lack the ability to even learn the laws (or at least obey them) it seems unlikely that we will achieve even one of those.
Well, maybe you've frozen some good backs and left them to chill downstairs?
@nzzp said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@jimmyb I guess what I struggle with is 'he created all these players and built a fantastic team' and 'the current players are shit but he won't drop them'. Feels like both shouldn't be true at the same time - if he is as good at developing players as claimed, surely he'd either coach these players to be better - or drop them.
I still sheet our issues back to Super getting too big, the quality plummetting and (in my opinion) not preparing players for Tests that well any more.
It is possible that he could select players with potential but others at Crusaders HQ would develop them - and he doesn't have those staff/that environment any more?
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
Well, maybe you've frozen some good backs and left them to chill downstairs?
No I leave the good ones alone, but some of the current ones might get an "invitation" to the cellar the way they are going.
@Snowy said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
Well, maybe you've frozen some good backs and left them to chill downstairs?
No I leave the good ones alone, but some of the current ones might get an "invitation" to the cellar the way they are going.
Better to extend the invitation to the coaching team......
Remember how good Jane, Dagg and Kahui were under the high ball?
We've really got no one even near that on a consistent basis.
Any Super level winger or fullback should have it spelled out pretty clearly that they don't get into the ABs unless their aerial game is top notch - both offensively and defensively. They should also all know how to kick it reasonably well. And if they haven't got it, learn it. Else we are permanent targets there.
And that goes for future wingers like Carter or Tangitau as well.
The ABs should have a national skills coach visiting Super level sides constantly training and assessing these skills and giving them new targets. Reporting directly to the AB coaches. If there is no improvement, they don't get into the ABs.
@Frank said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
We've really got no one even near that on a consistent basis.
Caleb is pretty good in the air to be fair. Just injured.
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
As much as I'd like to see certain changes in the backline, I'm not expecting it to happen. Robertson seems like more of a motivator than coach - he leaves the coaching up to the other guys. At the Crusaders, with the majority of the side All Blacks, he could motivate the players to play to their ability and that'd do the job against a side with a handful of internationals. But when the playing field is even and the opposition is just as motivated, you need ruthless systems. Right now, the team doesn’t look like they have them.
The motivator vs coach idea also fits with the way he tries to be mates with the players and the cheesy “walk together” stuff, which is less like strategy and more like a way to keep them onside so he can fire them up. That might explain his reluctance to drop senior guys too. He sees the level they've played to in the past and thinks he can motivate them to play to that level. It works when you’ve got the best squad in the comp, but at test level sentiment can’t come before standards.
Robertson seems to be a vibes guy.
At the Crusdaers the squad was the squad and the faces were the same week to week.
You could move a Havili from 12 to 15 or 10 in a pinch or big Leicester to wing or centre as required.
The team essentially picked itself, everyone was happy and on message and the talent got them over the line.
Now he has 5 Super Rugby teams to pick from........and he doesnt know what to do and hasnt got the heart to drop anyone.
Decision paralysis.
Just digressing:
We all know the ABs haven't lost at Eden Park since 1994.
Two questions (ok 2 and a half), without Google:
- When did the Springboks last win at Eden Park?
- When did the the All Blacks last not win at Eden Park?
2a. Against who? What year?
@sparky said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
1937
It was a draw against the Lions in 2017. The ABs also drew against the Springboks there in 1994.
Spoilsport. But correct. Virtual chocolate fish to you.
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@Frank you mean like when Mike Cron did that?
Plenty of issues in our national game that are.clear to see, yet doesn't seem anyone addressing it or even concerned there is nothing being done to rectify it.
Would have thought the likes of Spencer, Nonu, Jane, Carter, McCaw, Mealamu, Whitelock would all be guys that would be sought after to instill mindset, skills and training into this generation.
Posting here, although comments based on Pumas 2.
Three main areas of concern:
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Aerial. We are holed below water line. Need AFL style coaching toot sweet;
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Backline. Seemed impossible to run backline moves because forwards were constantly in the way. Can’t we just run some straight backline moves?
DMac created space whereas BB was shackled by Puma D.
Jordie seems clunky. Like to see miss passes straight to 13. Would have liked to see Tupaea get a run outside DMac at 12.
Taking Proctor off for Quinn seemed to solve nothing. Would have been better to push Jordie into back three and let Proctor have a run with Tupaea inside; -
Loosies. As I feared, the formulaic selection was a failure. A balanced trio needs to encompass a fetcher, a ball slower, jumper, cleaner, smasher, and explosive runner. To a degree who does which isn’t so important. We ended up with no real fetcher, no ball slower and no smasher. The second Puma try highlighted the need for a 6 who’s used to defending off scrums.
In fact when Sititi came on it would have been better if Vaa’i had gone to lock, perhaps replacing Scooter, and Parker to six.
I think TWM should treat Sititi and Savea as 8s, and only have one on field at a time, Parker and Finau as 6s and Kirifi and Jacobson as 7s, Lakai seems to genuinely cover 7 and 8, and would have been a better bet than RD at 7.
@Bones said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@Frank you mean like when Mike Cron did that?
Plenty of issues in our national game that are.clear to see, yet doesn't seem anyone addressing it or even concerned there is nothing being done to rectify it.
Would have thought the likes of Spencer, Nonu, Jane, Carter, McCaw, Mealamu, Whitelock would all be guys that would be sought after to instill mindset, skills and training into this generation.
I'd love to hear Nonu's thoughts on this right now. Last time I saw him speak his analysis on an AB performance was superb and he didn't pull any punches. They should get him in to give his 2c on the issues with our backline right now, I bet it'd be illuminating.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@Frank you mean like when Mike Cron did that?
Plenty of issues in our national game that are.clear to see, yet doesn't seem anyone addressing it or even concerned there is nothing being done to rectify it.
Would have thought the likes of Spencer, Nonu, Jane, Carter, McCaw, Mealamu, Whitelock would all be guys that would be sought after to instill mindset, skills and training into this generation.
> I'd love to hear Nonu's thoughts on this right now. Last time I saw him speak his analysis on an AB performance was superb and he didn't pull any punches. They should get him in to give his 2c on the issues with our backline right now, I bet it'd be illuminating.
He’s probably far too busy still playing like the absolute best ever 12 there has ever been. Legend.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@Frank you mean like when Mike Cron did that?
Plenty of issues in our national game that are.clear to see, yet doesn't seem anyone addressing it or even concerned there is nothing being done to rectify it.
Would have thought the likes of Spencer, Nonu, Jane, Carter, McCaw, Mealamu, Whitelock would all be guys that would be sought after to instill mindset, skills and training into this generation.
I'd love to hear Nonu's thoughts on this right now. Last time I saw him speak his analysis on an AB performance was superb and he didn't pull any punches. They should get him in to give his 2c on the issues with our backline right now, I bet it'd be illuminating.
100%, too many yes men analysing the ABs these days. Kirwan was probably one of the media men who actually said what he thought, probably not surprising he is no longer working for ‘woke’ Sky Sport.