Foster's Firsts.

Still got to beat Italy first...

@Donsteppa Foster first…NZ having to focus completely on Italy to ensure the win. That’s quite the come down from times of yore.

I've never been a supporter of Fosters and reckon the AB's lost the plot after Lions 1 in 2017 but a lot of the firsts are a reflection on the available players and the comparative strengths of the opposition.

Making it all about us is a continuation of the arrogance that got us into this mess. We used to be fitter and more skilful than our opponents but no longer are. That's not just down to Foster.

I also don't think Razor is going to be the messiah next year. He'll have the same forwards coach and many of the same players who have now been owned in two successive matches. Hopefully we will have a plan B and won't simply revery to brainless kicking but it's a long way back to the top of world rugby and it's not all about the coach's (in)abilities. Serious structural and competitive concerns too.

The one hope I do have in regards to Razor and the culture/mindset change he can bring is that the Crusaders whilst not being an unbeatable team have always displayed a remarkable ability to get up for the big games.
Case in point being this year when they lost to the Dura and the Chiefs (twice) but still got up for the big dance.
If he can bring that to the AB's it's a big step forward.

Super rugby encourages flowing attacking all action expansive rugby from the Kiwi sides. Which in turn leads to commparatively small forwards who get blown away in the collisions by the bigger packs - almost all of whom can compete with us at the skill level too.

If we can play a continuity game we can hang in there and blow teams away in the 4th quarter. This is what we always used to do but a combination of teams successfully employing the dark arts to slow the game down and having greater depth (than us) so they can run on a practically new pack without any drop in quality has screwed this game plan.

Our lack of Plan B is down to the uniformity of our playing options. Same only not as good.

@dogmeat 16. Samisoni Taukei’aho (25)

17. Ofa Tu’ungafasi (53)

18. Fletcher Newell (8)

19. Tupou Vaa’i (22)

20. Luke Jacobson (15)

21. Finlay Christie (17)

22. David Havili (25)

23. Leicester Fainga’anuku (3)

Bench vs France: hardly screams run them off their feet in the final 15 minutes. Too much a bob each way selecting. If that is genuinely the plan, then it should be something like Roigard, Taylor or Coles, Leicester, Tamaiti, McKenzie etc.

@dogmeat said in Foster's Firsts.:

I also don't think Razor is going to be the messiah next year.

He doesn't need to be the messiah, he just needs to not be a naughty naughty boy coach.

First AB (Ethan De Groot) to be sent off at the RWC.

@sparky

@sparky ordinarily I'd say you can't attribute that to the coaching, but there is certainly some issues with our discipline which does come back to coaching

@taniwharugby said in Foster's Firsts.:

@sparky ordinarily I'd say you can't attribute that to the coaching, but there is certainly some issues with our discipline which does come back to coaching

If it’s the coaching things may not get better next year. The Saders get pinged a hell of a lot.

@Crazy-Horse but they didn't get alot of cards do they, and usually a bit more calculated?

@taniwharugby said in Foster's Firsts.:

@Crazy-Horse but they didn't get alot of cards do they, and usually a bit more calculated?

I haven't see any stats but it seems to me they got carded a fair bit too. Or maybe it seemed that way to me because I support them.

@Crazy-Horse I know there is always lenty of chat in match threads about how.much they get away with or deserve cards....

@taniwharugby said in Foster's Firsts.:

@Crazy-Horse I know there is always lenty of chat in match threads about how.much they get away with or deserve cards....

Yeah but I think on here the Saders would be called evil
cheats for helping old ladies across the road.

@Crazy-Horse

Penalties not too bad, YCs they ranked 8th this year. 1st (meaning fewest YCs) was the Chiefs

Foz could be first AB coach to have win ratio below 70% ? Might have to fact check that one

@Nevorian said in Foster's Firsts.:

Foz could be first AB coach to have win ratio below 70% ? Might have to fact check that one

Nah nowhere near (from 2022)

lol Wayne Smith was shit!

@Machpants well he is teetering on the edge there if you take out those that were obviously sacked early in their tenures and if he manages to lose another one or two…..

I think this is accurate: Foster 2020-2023

Wins: 28 (68.3%)
Losses: 11 (26.8%)
Draws: 2 (4.9%)

So if we bomb out in the QF

Wins: 30 (68.2%)
Losses: 12 (27.3%)
Draws: 2 (4.5%)

Lucky Australia didn't have a purple patch during that time otherwise.......

Here is a stat. Against SA, France, and Ireland since 2020, the ABs winning statistic is 33%. That is 8 losses, 4 wins.

I note that almost all those coaches with poorer results got the chop before 4 years. As should have Foster (because at that point his results were even worse).

Some of those guys only had one losing tour, and then were axed. The series loss to Ireland would have been the end of a coach in previous times.

@Machpants said in Foster's Firsts.:

@Nevorian said in Foster's Firsts.:

Foz could be first AB coach to have win ratio below 70% ? Might have to fact check that one

Nah nowhere near (from 2022)
View image

Fred Allen is missing and had a 100% record from 14 Tests. Never lost a game IIRC and had one draw.

There's some names there like Ivan Vodanovich & JJ Stewart I really don't want to ever see again.... And we think the last few years have been a bit shit.

@Chester-Draws said in Foster's Firsts.:

I note that almost all those coaches with poorer results got the chop before 4 years. As should have Foster (because at that point his results were even worse).

Some of those guys only had one losing tour, and then were axed.
The series loss to Ireland would have been the end of a coach in previous times.

Different era. Coaches were appointed according to the touring schedule and being coach for more than a couple of years was very unusual. Coaching GOAT Fred Allen (won all 14 Tests) was only in the job for 2 years and JJ Stewart coached for 3 more years after losing a series at home to England in '73.

The closest parallel to today is Vodanovich who was replaced by the 1970's Coaching Jesus Bob Duff.

@Chester-Draws said in Foster's Firsts.:

I note that almost all those coaches with poorer results got the chop before 4 years. As should have Foster (because at that point his results were even worse).

Some of those guys only had one losing tour, and then were axed. The series loss to Ireland would have been the end of a coach in previous times.

Different times for sure.

They were ruthless on players too, Buck Shelford got dropped because the ABs didn’t beat Scotland convincingly.

Worth pointing out a very good Scots team that had just won a Grand Slam and contained all timers like David Sole, John Jeffrey, Finlay Calder, Gary Armstrong and the Hastings bros.

@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster's Firsts.:

@Machpants said in Foster's Firsts.:

@Nevorian said in Foster's Firsts.:

Foz could be first AB coach to have win ratio below 70% ? Might have to fact check that one

Nah nowhere near (from 2022)
View image

Fred Allen is missing and had a 100% record from 14 Tests. Never lost a game IIRC and had one draw.

There's some names there like Ivan Vodanovich & JJ Stewart I really don't want to ever see again.... And we think the last few years have been a bit shit.

Yeah I only included the 70% and less which is relevant to the incorrect statement

@MN5 said in Foster's Firsts.:

They were ruthless on players too, Buck Shelford got dropped because the ABs didn’t beat Scotland convincingly.

IIRC our win ratio for the next 5 years plummeted to below 70% when it was nearly 100% under Buck.

Clearly, being ruthless on players worked out well back then.

Bryce Rope (1983 — 1984) 9 1 2 12 75
Bob Duff (1972 — 1973) 6 1 1 8 75
John Hart (1996 — 1999) 31 1 9 41 76
Jack Gleeson (1977 — 1978) 10 0 3 13 77
Brian Lochore (1985 — 1987) 14 1 3 18 78
Neil McPhail (1961, 1963 — 1965) 16 2 2 20 80
John Mitchell (2002 — 2003) 23 1 4 28 82
Peter Burke (1981 — 1982) 9 0 2 11 82
Graham Henry (2004 — 2011) 88 0 15 103 85
Alex Wyllie (1988 — 1991) 25 1 3 29 86
Steve Hansen (2012 — 2019) 93 4 10 107 87
Fred Allen (1966 — 1968) 14 0 0 14 100
Ron Bush (1962) 2 0 0 2 100
Dick Everest (1957) 2 0 0 2 100
Len Clode (1951) 3 0 0 3 100

@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster's Firsts.:

@MN5 said in Foster's Firsts.:

They were ruthless on players too, Buck Shelford got dropped because the ABs didn’t beat Scotland convincingly.

IIRC our win ratio for the next 5 years plummeted to below 70% when it was nearly 100% under Buck.

Clearly, being ruthless on players worked out well back then.

Why was Buck the scapegoat?

Everyone knows all about “Bring back Buck” but why was it him and no one else ?

Henry and Hansen's records really stand out given the number of games. Absolutely incredible success during the professional era. Not saying we can't improve but we probably have to accept we are unlikely to see win percentages like that again over so many matches.

@MN5 said in Foster's Firsts.:

@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster's Firsts.:

@MN5 said in Foster's Firsts.:

They were ruthless on players too, Buck Shelford got dropped because the ABs didn’t beat Scotland convincingly.

IIRC our win ratio for the next 5 years plummeted to below 70% when it was nearly 100% under Buck.

Clearly, being ruthless on players worked out well back then.

Why was Buck the scapegoat?

Everyone knows all about “Bring back Buck” but why was it him and no one else ?

Million Dollar Question

@MN5 because Gallagher, Ridge and Schuster had all signed for rugby league clubs and the Nzrfu feared Zinzan Brooke would be next. In order to keep Zinny they had to drop Buck who was getting on in age anyway

@No-Quarter said in Foster's Firsts.:

Henry and Hansen's records really stand out given the number of games. Absolutely incredible success during the professional era. Not saying we can't improve but we probably have to accept we are unlikely to see win percentages like that again over so many matches.

Yeah no way little old NZ is getting back to that dominance, but the way that work & excellence has been lost so fast with the weak NZR unable to move on beyond those two coaches and protégée is terrible

Much like Vodanovich following Allen...