So what did we learn from Bled2?

@Nepia said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@antipodean said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Machpants said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@taniwharugby said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

I think off that break RI could have passed to Will, Koribete may or may not have caught Will who in turn could have passed back to RI...don't think it was a bad non pass, but a could have passed.

I think guys like DP, HS, RTS,FF, TV and others have all been given far too little time out there to be making any kind of call on them.

Of that bunch, DP is the one I like most, potential captain, arguably the best 7 in super rugby, then got splinters most of the test campaign.

AI is an interesting one, physically he should be the best player on the park, but often isn't...he did some good stuff last night but still seems to drift in and out of games, think he has way more upside than Frizzell, but also see the value of the energiser bunny, Blackadder.

Was nice having a physical direct running 12, rather that a lightweight 12 and using like he is a heavier physical specimen! Havili has his skills, but doesn't demand attention from opposition as a bigger 12 will.

Was great to see the 2 old locks playing well, feeding off one another's energy, winding back the clock...can they hang on for another 12 months?

Still huge concerns with our ability to do the basics, I mean we had what, 30 mins in the last 2 weeks with a numerical advantage yetfailed to capitalise...and the other not so small elephant in the room, our defence.

We seem good on our line more often when no depth to worry about but is this.just good scramble, but outside this we are still so unstructured and ill disciplined (in being able to hold our line) often we are staggered, width is all over the show...

All told, I think more positives than negatives.

That was a blown try, I was high up above the halfway line, and Ioane not passing was top level hungus, appalling decision. Almost dead cert try blown.

When he looked towards Jordan, Jordan was potentially obscured by Koroibete. Had Rieko had a subsequent look a split second later then he may well have.

If he had passed, and Marika had got in the middle to block the pass (which looked possible) then I bet many of the same people complaining he didn't pass would be complaining he did.

For me, and I am happy to be corrected on this because I have not seen a replay, but it is that RI did not appear to be even considering the pass that bothers me a little. Soneone mentioned above RI looked once and that was it. Ideally I would have liked him to have multiple looks and engage his periferal vision. It gives the defence something to think about. If he can develop this in his game he will be fantastic.

Unfortunately it's an art that not many players in NZ have mastered in recent times.

@Kirwan Beady and Jordie are very different fullbacks. I have quite a strong preference for what Jordie brings.

Of course, it's all fucking Jordie's fault. If he'd just signed with the Crusaders when Razor told him to he would have been playing second-five for the past five years!

@Chris-B said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Kirwan Beady and Jordie are very different fullbacks. I have quite a strong preference for what Jordie brings.

Of course, it's all fucking Jordie's fault. If he'd just signed with the Crusaders when Razor told him to he would have been playing second-five for the past five years!

Beauden can catch high balls at FB better than David Havili can offer anything remotely resembling a physical presence in midfield.

It wasn't just that Jordie was carrying hard and making big metres but was also putting in a big shift in defence as well. It made a huge difference.

@Chris-B said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Kirwan Beady and Jordie are very different fullbacks. I have quite a strong preference for what Jordie brings.

Really? The guy is a 12 playing fullback. He makes a bloody good fist of it but his whole game screams 12.

@KiwiMurph biggest boot in the squad, tallest back and good under the high ball, great defender, decent pace, creates space and not afraid to have a crack. It's the first two that pin him as a 1st pick FB imo. But I want him at 12 personally and like that he can drop into the pocket if needed.

Just about jizzed myself with some of those awesome flat passes. RI's weaker passing game gets offset by jordie throwing skip passes

@Chris-B said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

Beady and Jordie are very different fullbacks. I have quite a strong preference for what Jordie brings.

Sure, but then you have journeyman Havili at 12, no thanks.

Also we cannot underestimate how valuable a big, aggressive unit is at 12. And jordie loves the combative stuff so let's indulge him!

@Chris said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@canefan said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Frye said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

Havili must be feeling unlucky. One head knock had him go from starting All Black to suddenly possibly missing out on a World Cup berth if ALB and/or Goodhue are fit and in form.

In saying that though, we have to temper Jordie's performance (and All Blacks performance in general) with the fact that the Wallaby are currently 9th in the world.

He never felt like the answer. After a few games up north we will see if JB can nail 12 down or not. Unless Foster hands the job back to DH and we learn nothing

To be fair Japan,Scotland and Wales will not give us too many answers.England maybe will.

Saving this one

@MiketheSnow goddammit

@MiketheSnow said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Chris said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@canefan said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Frye said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

Havili must be feeling unlucky. One head knock had him go from starting All Black to suddenly possibly missing out on a World Cup berth if ALB and/or Goodhue are fit and in form.

In saying that though, we have to temper Jordie's performance (and All Blacks performance in general) with the fact that the Wallaby are currently 9th in the world.

He never felt like the answer. After a few games up north we will see if JB can nail 12 down or not. Unless Foster hands the job back to DH and we learn nothing

To be fair Japan,Scotland and Wales will not give us too many answers.England maybe will.

Saving this one

I can feel the backlash already.

@MiketheSnow Hopefully we are not taking Scotland and Wales lightly or even Japan for that matter, they have beaten South Africa and Ireland. The last two England and Ireland will be season defining, I would expect us to be up for at least one of the last two.

@SBW1 said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@MiketheSnow Hopefully we are not taking Scotland and Wales lightly or even Japan for that matter, they have beaten South Africa and Ireland. The last two England and Ireland will be season defining, I would expect us to be up for at least one of the last two.

we do not play Ireland on the End of year tour.

@Frye said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Chris-B said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Kirwan Beady and Jordie are very different fullbacks. I have quite a strong preference for what Jordie brings.

Of course, it's all fucking Jordie's fault. If he'd just signed with the Crusaders when Razor told him to he would have been playing second-five for the past five years!

Beauden can catch high balls at FB better than David Havili can offer anything remotely resembling a physical presence in midfield.

It wasn't just that Jordie was carrying hard and making big metres but was also putting in a big shift in defence as well. It made a huge difference.

The thing I liked was that JB didn't do anything amazing and flukey but all the basics really well in a way that looks to work against other teams. How much was down to Australia? Don't know but at 12 he looks solidly promising rather than a flash in the pan.
My query might be if he slow down quickly with age given his size but that is a future problem.

Some typicaly bullshit raiting from rugbypass:

My own personal raitings:.

1. The Groot: 7.5. a couple of mistakes, but excellent scrum and mostly very good.
2. Taylor: 6. Better than last game, but still way to many mistakes.
3. Lomax: 7. Great scrum, decent defence, quiet on attack.
4. BBR: 7. Solid.
5. S Whitelock: 7. Scrum good, lineout ok, scored a try but offered little else on attack.
6. A Ioane: 6.5. Average.
7. Papalii: 7. Great defence, offered little in attack.
8. Savea: 7. Quiet game.
9. Smith: 7. Organized well.
10. Mo'unga: 6.5. Kicked well, although made a few poor decisions on attack.
11. Clarke: 6. Quiet game. Dependable from high balls.
12. J Barrett: 9. Should have been mom
13. R Ioane: 7.5. Dangerous on counter, but needs to learn how to pass.
14. Jordan: 8. Best game this year imo
15. B Barrett: 7.5. Good game.

@Chris Thanks did not know that. In that case I think they maybe better prepared and timing maybe better this year than last. They have a month off and a lot of players will probably get some game time at NPC level.

@Machpants said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@taniwharugby said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

I think off that break RI could have passed to Will, Koribete may or may not have caught Will who in turn could have passed back to RI...don't think it was a bad non pass, but a could have passed.

I think guys like DP, HS, RTS,FF, TV and others have all been given far too little time out there to be making any kind of call on them.

Of that bunch, DP is the one I like most, potential captain, arguably the best 7 in super rugby, then got splinters most of the test campaign.

AI is an interesting one, physically he should be the best player on the park, but often isn't...he did some good stuff last night but still seems to drift in and out of games, think he has way more upside than Frizzell, but also see the value of the energiser bunny, Blackadder.

Was nice having a physical direct running 12, rather that a lightweight 12 and using like he is a heavier physical specimen! Havili has his skills, but doesn't demand attention from opposition as a bigger 12 will.

Was great to see the 2 old locks playing well, feeding off one another's energy, winding back the clock...can they hang on for another 12 months?

Still huge concerns with our ability to do the basics, I mean we had what, 30 mins in the last 2 weeks with a numerical advantage yetfailed to capitalise...and the other not so small elephant in the room, our defence.

We seem good on our line more often when no depth to worry about but is this.just good scramble, but outside this we are still so unstructured and ill disciplined (in being able to hold our line) often we are staggered, width is all over the show...

All told, I think more positives than negatives.

That was a blown try, I was high up above the halfway line, and Ioane not passing was top level hungus, appalling decision. Almost dead cert try blown.

I've learnt that the ABs shape and accuracy first half was terrible, really. And Ozzie played like the ninth ranked team in the world, see we were 17 up somehow. Looked pretty bad live

That's interesting, watching it on TV it looked like Korobeti was definitely going to smoke Jordan from behind as soon as the pass was made, so it seemed an OK option to hold on.

Later in the game a similar pass was made to Jordie on a breakout, and he got tackled from behind immediately.

@nostrildamus JB has got brilliant awareness and distribution skills

Just watched the game

As compared to the start of the season all I can say is thank you that we now have Lomax, De Groot, Sami and Newell.
JB at 12 is a massive bonus. Retallick is back. Paps is going well.
Whitelock needs to stay captain. Love the no frills common sense
Still missing Razor

@BerniesCorner said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@nostrildamus JB has got brilliant awareness and distribution skills

What I did see impressed me.

@BerniesCorner While the coaching setup is now much improved with the additions of Ryan and Schmidt, still think we may need something a little extra for the Northern tour whether that be a new defense coach, Wayne Smith's involvement or even assistance from someone like John Mitchell for our game against England. Really wish Razor could be brought into the environment or even be part of the World Cup setup.

@SBW1 said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@BerniesCorner While the coaching setup is now much improved with the additions of Ryan and Schmidt, still think we may need something a little extra for the Northern tour whether that be a new defense coach, Wayne Smith's involvement or even assistance from someone like John Mitchell for our game against England. Really wish Razor could be brought into the environment or even be part of the World Cup setup.

Fuck off, the players all know how to grip the ball properly.

@Paekakboyz said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@KiwiMurph biggest boot in the squad, tallest back and good under the high ball, great defender, decent pace, creates space and not afraid to have a crack. It's the first two that pin him as a 1st pick FB imo. But I want him at 12 personally and like that he can drop into the pocket if needed.

Just about jizzed myself with some of those awesome flat passes. RI's weaker passing game gets offset by jordie throwing skip passes

I agree with your first points but we need a Fullback who breaks the line. Teams need to be afraid to boot the ball down to us.

To me that’s Will Jordan. I love the idea of him getting the ball with time and space, picking a gap and then running at fatties. We will have teams on the back foot all day.

The upside of Jordie at 12 eclipses the downside of not having him at 15.

@Steve said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Paekakboyz said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@KiwiMurph biggest boot in the squad, tallest back and good under the high ball, great defender, decent pace, creates space and not afraid to have a crack. It's the first two that pin him as a 1st pick FB imo. But I want him at 12 personally and like that he can drop into the pocket if needed.

Just about jizzed myself with some of those awesome flat passes. RI's weaker passing game gets offset by jordie throwing skip passes

I agree with your first points but we need a Fullback who breaks the line. Teams need to be afraid to boot the ball down to us.

To me that’s Will Jordan. I love the idea of him getting the ball with time and space, picking a gap and then running at fatties. We will have teams on the back foot all day.

Teams won't be afraid to run at us with his current defence.

@Tim said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@BartMan Yet another excellent performance from Rieko Ioane, made huge metres, excellent decision making, rushed up on defence when needed, and got a turn over - he's not a centre! Don't you get tired of pushing premeditated takes? He was excellent, and I challenge anyone to name a better centre since 2015.

He’s is our best Centre by far, who else would we select there? Plus he’s getting better and better. Is he the finished product? Of course not but he will get better with more time in the saddle.

Even Foster isn’t stupid enough to move him back to wing.

• Jordie is our best 12. He’s the missing piece at 12. Helps Richie with a running options and holds the defence creating more space for Rieko. Run, kick pass threat who can hit hard on defence. That said Fozzie will prob play him on wing now.

• We now have enormous depth in the front row to the point Ta’avao can’t even get a look in.

• Papali’i makes Cane redundant especially when Whitelock, Savea and Smith are available as captains.

• Akira Ioane needs to be persevered at 6. He showed he can play tight and defend well when the physicality stakes were high. Basically can do what Frizell, Barrett can do with much more upside.

• BB is the best option at FB giving us a triple pivot capability. That means Jordan is at 14. He’d make a great test FB but in the current setup he’s a 14.

@TheMojoman said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

• Jordie is our best 12. He’s the missing piece at 12. Helps Richie with a running options and holds the defence creating more space for Rieko. Run, kick pass threat who can hit hard on defence. That said Fozzie will prob play him on wing now.

• We now have enormous depth in the front row to the point Ta’avao can’t even get a look in.

• Papali’i makes Cane redundant especially when Whitelock, Savea and Smith are available as captains.

• Akira Ioane needs to be persevered at 6. He showed he can play tight and defend well when the physicality stakes were high. Basically can do what Frizell, Barrett can do with much more upside.

• BB is the best option at FB giving us a triple pivot capability. That means Jordan is at 14. He’d make a great test FB but in the current setup he’s a 14.

agree with this

@Nepia Heard a rumour on another forum that RTS has been tabled an offer from the Roosters for the latter half of 2023. Wonder if he gets on EOYT with ALB and Goodhue returning.

@Tim said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@BartMan Yet another excellent performance from Rieko Ioane, made huge metres, excellent decision making, rushed up on defence when needed, and got a turn over - he's not a centre! Don't you get tired of pushing premeditated takes? He was excellent, and I challenge anyone to name a better centre since 2015.

Even if he wasn't a centre's arsehole, the fact is that everyone else who could possible play there instead is injured - he's easily the best we have fit and available and is performing well.

@Victor-Meldrew said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Tim said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@mariner4life He's had four blinders in the last five tests. Yet dickheads will just assume that because we aren't making spectacular wide moves, while scoring 40 points, it must because we have a defective centre. Moronic.

I think he's the best option at 13 and has come on in spades, but has some work-on's - e. g. he needs to give his support players/wingers more space. There have been times when he's made a blistering break but edged towards the touchline which cramps his attack options.

This is very true but he has come on leaps and bounds in the relatively short time he has been a test match centre. If he continues on his current trajectory, he could be an absolute phenomenon at the RWC next year. Why give up that possibility, and the significant time that has been invested in his development to date, just because there remain a few rough edges

@SBW1 These results yet again prove that the problem we have had for a very long period of time has been organization, leadership and coaching. We have good players
If Razor was at the helm another dimension would reveal itself, 100%

I think if we are going to persist with both Clarke and Ioane in the starting backline them we need to find a few inventive ways to better use them because I don’t think either of them are natural ball players. I think part of our fluency issues is because we want the ball in their hands to run but more often than not our attack is breaking down because they are either unwilling passers or they’re not confident doing it. To me it’s both a mental and skill thing.

This is not a criticism but if we are wanting to improve our efficiency we are going to have see a rapid improvement quickly or a change needs to occur.

Awesome knowing we have a stable scrum. Unreal . A decent scrum was becoming a hazy memory

Has Sami become number 1 hooker passing Fitz and Coles in the GOAT AB team of recent living memory?
Peak Coles was my number 1 but it's getting close

@BerniesCorner said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

Has Sami become number 1 hooker passing Fitz and Coles in the GOAT AB team of recent living memory?
Peak Coles was my number 1 but it's getting close

I know he’s playing well, but it’s pretty early days. He hasn’t even reached Mealamu level let alone the lofty heights of Fitzy.

So what did we learn from Bled2?

That the two camps will never meet halfway on Akira Ioane.

@ACT-Crusader Yet peak Coles redefined the position especially on the wing!

@junior said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Victor-Meldrew said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@Tim said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

@mariner4life He's had four blinders in the last five tests. Yet dickheads will just assume that because we aren't making spectacular wide moves, while scoring 40 points, it must because we have a defective centre. Moronic.

I think he's the best option at 13 and has come on in spades, but has some work-on's - e. g. he needs to give his support players/wingers more space. There have been times when he's made a blistering break but edged towards the touchline which cramps his attack options.

This is very true but he has come on leaps and bounds in the relatively short time he has been a test match centre. If he continues on his current trajectory, he could be an absolute phenomenon at the RWC next year. Why give up that possibility, and the significant time that has been invested in his development to date, just because there remain a few rough edges

I liked the way he combined with a new centre yesterday from what little I saw. If he can keep his support runners with him and learn to hold the ball better, a la Conrad, rather than swap it from hand-hand, he'll be almost there.

That may sound like basic stuff, but his other play inc. his scramble defence, makes up for it IMHO.

I think the obvious thing to me is we have 3 test level fullbacks in JB, BB and WJ and really there is not that much between them.

At 12 we have no options as good as those three fullbacks. So JB to 12 has to be a no brainer as you still have two good options at 15. If we use JB at 15 we have no really good options at 12. Simples.

@SBW1 is Goodhue returning.? We have been waiting for years and although obviously one of Fozzies faves he really needs to earn his spot back. Goodhue is the new Kahui but not as good.

@TheMojoman said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:

• Jordie is our best 12. He’s the missing piece at 12. Helps Richie with a running options and holds the defence creating more space for Rieko. Run, kick pass threat who can hit hard on defence. That said Fozzie will prob play him on wing now.

• We now have enormous depth in the front row to the point Ta’avao can’t even get a look in.

• Papali’i makes Cane redundant especially when Whitelock, Savea and Smith are available as captains.

• Akira Ioane needs to be persevered at 6. He showed he can play tight and defend well when the physicality stakes were high. Basically can do what Frizell, Barrett can do with much more upside.

• BB is the best option at FB giving us a triple pivot capability. That means Jordan is at 14. He’d make a great test FB but in the current setup he’s a 14.

They want Jordan at 14 to play a roving role and go looking for the ball , not be stuck out on the wing , it looks like to me he is starting to get the hang of that , starting to bob up more in the middle of the field ,

Hopefully just because he wears 14 on his back it doesn’t matter , we can still utilise all the good stuff that he brings