Boks tour squad

@reprobate said in Boks tour squad:

@ploughboy said in Boks tour squad:

would make more sense using Iose as a hybrid than LF

I dunno about that. The way the game is played these days there are a shitload of backs who are pretty solid breakdown players, but there are not many forwards who could position and defend effectively at centre or wing.

Iose is probably one of the loosies in NZ that wouldn't look out of place in the centres or on the wing if required. Oli Mathis, Lakai and Savea are others. The latter two played in the backs when they were at college so wouldn't be too far out the gate.

Iose's call for the ball on Saturday against the Crusaders, the speed to beat his opposite and then the banana kick over the top for Roigard's try was top notch.

@Canes4life said in Boks tour squad:

@reprobate said in Boks tour squad:

@ploughboy said in Boks tour squad:

would make more sense using Iose as a hybrid than LF

I dunno about that. The way the game is played these days there are a shitload of backs who are pretty solid breakdown players, but there are not many forwards who could position and defend effectively at centre or wing.

Iose is probably one of the loosies in NZ that wouldn't look out of place in the centres or on the wing if required. Oli Mathis, Lakai and Savea are others. The latter two played in the backs when they were at college so wouldn't be too far out the gate.

Iose's call for the ball on Saturday against the Crusaders, the speed to beat his opposite and then the banana kick over the top for Roigard's try was top notch.

And how is his positioning in the back field? His reading of when to come in and when to stay out? I think there are plenty of forwards who can look good attacking against backs, but not many at all who can look good defending against quality backs in space.
If you think Jordan, Fineanganofo, Clarke, Tangitau would rip them apart in a bit of space, or a good kicking 10 would make them look silly with 50-22s etc, then they really shouldn't be there - there's nowhere to hide in the open spaces.

@reprobate said in Boks tour squad:

@ploughboy said in Boks tour squad:

would make more sense using Iose as a hybrid than LF

I dunno about that. The way the game is played these days there are a shitload of backs who are pretty solid breakdown players, but there are not many forwards who could position and defend effectively at centre or wing.

considering LF defensive issues I would still back Iose.

will add I don't believe either player ranks high enough in there core role to be really considered for the bench

@ploughboy said in Boks tour squad:

will add I don't believe either player ranks high enough in there core role to be really considered for the bench

Oh I wouldn't pick LF in midfield, defense and ball security are not good enough. I just think you can hide individual deficiencies more in the pack than for someone like Iose in the backs. You can have a player who plays the 'Savea' role (for want of a better word) in a pack - sure it changes the workload for others, but it doesn't directly leave gaps for tries scored like deliberately giving the opposition backline a mismatch does.

If we want someone to play that LF role, Tavatavanawai would seem a far better option to me. He's a similar power runner, but he's definitely better over the ball, he definitely doesn't lose possession anywhere near as much, and he definitely doesn't miss as many tackles.

@reprobate said in Boks tour squad:

@ploughboy said in Boks tour squad:

will add I don't believe either player ranks high enough in there core role to be really considered for the bench

Oh I wouldn't pick LF in midfield, defense and ball security are not good enough. I just think you can hide individual deficiencies more in the pack than for someone like Iose in the backs. You can have a player who plays the 'Savea' role (for want of a better word) in a pack - sure it changes the workload for others, but it doesn't directly leave gaps for tries scored like deliberately giving the opposition backline a mismatch does.

If we want someone to play that LF role, Tavatavanawai would seem a far better option to me. He's a similar power runner, but he's definitely better over the ball, he definitely doesn't lose possession anywhere near as much, and he definitely doesn't miss as many tackles.

LF has improved this year in defense and ball security quite a lot.

Loose Forwards - Net Impacts Per 80 Minutes
6.55 Fainga'anuku
4 Papali'i
3.53 Kirifi
2.71 Jacobson
2.45 Segner
2.18 Lakai
2.14 Finau
2.03 Flanders
1.38 Blackadder
0.66 Lio Willie
0.63 Parker
-1.21 Gardiner
-4.06 Sititi

Backs will normally have higher impacts so LF will be somewhat skewed.

(tries + try assists + clean breaks + offloads + defenders beaten+ turnovers won + dominant tackle - turnovers conceded - missed tackles - penalties conceded - yellow cards )

Player with highest net impacts is Tavatavanawai 8.73.

@brodean said in Boks tour squad:

Loose Forwards - Net Impacts Per 80 Minutes
6.55 Fainga'anuku
4 Papali'i
3.53 Kirifi
2.71 Jacobson
2.45 Segner
2.18 Lakai
2.14 Finau
2.03 Flanders
1.38 Blackadder
0.66 Lio Willie
0.63 Parker
-1.21 Gardiner
-4.06 Sititi

Backs will normally have higher impacts so LF will be somewhat skewed.

(tries + try assists + clean breaks + offloads + defenders beaten+ turnovers won + dominant tackle - turnovers conceded - missed tackles - penalties conceded - yellow cards )

Those stats tell me nothing, it also doesn't take into account the role of a specific loosie versus another within the same team.

@Canes4life said in Boks tour squad:

@brodean said in Boks tour squad:

Loose Forwards - Net Impacts Per 80 Minutes
6.55 Fainga'anuku
4 Papali'i
3.53 Kirifi
2.71 Jacobson
2.45 Segner
2.18 Lakai
2.14 Finau
2.03 Flanders
1.38 Blackadder
0.66 Lio Willie
0.63 Parker
-1.21 Gardiner
-4.06 Sititi

Backs will normally have higher impacts so LF will be somewhat skewed.

(tries + try assists + clean breaks + offloads + defenders beaten+ turnovers won + dominant tackle - turnovers conceded - missed tackles - penalties conceded - yellow cards )

Those stats tell me nothing, it also doesn't take into account the role of a specific loosie versus another within the same team.

What it tells me is that Wallace Sititi has been making a lot of mistakes. In fact he has the lowest tackle percentage of any loose forward in SRP at 65%.

Also I think its fairly reflective of some player stereotypes on this forum eg Parker and Blackadder don't offer a lot in terms of high impact plays.

@brodean said in Boks tour squad:

@Canes4life said in Boks tour squad:

@brodean said in Boks tour squad:

Loose Forwards - Net Impacts Per 80 Minutes
6.55 Fainga'anuku
4 Papali'i
3.53 Kirifi
2.71 Jacobson
2.45 Segner
2.18 Lakai
2.14 Finau
2.03 Flanders
1.38 Blackadder
0.66 Lio Willie
0.63 Parker
-1.21 Gardiner
-4.06 Sititi

Backs will normally have higher impacts so LF will be somewhat skewed.

(tries + try assists + clean breaks + offloads + defenders beaten+ turnovers won + dominant tackle - turnovers conceded - missed tackles - penalties conceded - yellow cards )

Those stats tell me nothing, it also doesn't take into account the role of a specific loosie versus another within the same team.

What it tells me is that Wallace Sititi has been making a lot of mistakes. In fact he has the lowest tackle percentage of any loose forward in SRP at 65%.

I feel the impact stat is far too broad tough. Breaking it down would be better.

@Canes4life how would you break it down, i like that at a high level, tells me even if sititi near the top of some good stat....his bad stats are outweighing things....and whilst i dont mind the idea of being very good at something but not all.....there is a difference between not being the best and something and being bad at them

@Canes4life said in Boks tour squad:

@brodean said in Boks tour squad:

@Canes4life said in Boks tour squad:

@brodean said in Boks tour squad:

Loose Forwards - Net Impacts Per 80 Minutes
6.55 Fainga'anuku
4 Papali'i
3.53 Kirifi
2.71 Jacobson
2.45 Segner
2.18 Lakai
2.14 Finau
2.03 Flanders
1.38 Blackadder
0.66 Lio Willie
0.63 Parker
-1.21 Gardiner
-4.06 Sititi

Backs will normally have higher impacts so LF will be somewhat skewed.

(tries + try assists + clean breaks + offloads + defenders beaten+ turnovers won + dominant tackle - turnovers conceded - missed tackles - penalties conceded - yellow cards )

Those stats tell me nothing, it also doesn't take into account the role of a specific loosie versus another within the same team.

What it tells me is that Wallace Sititi has been making a lot of mistakes. In fact he has the lowest tackle percentage of any loose forward in SRP at 65%.

I feel the impact stat is far too broad tough. Breaking it down would be better.

@Canes4life said in Boks tour squad:

@brodean said in Boks tour squad:

@Canes4life said in Boks tour squad:

@brodean said in Boks tour squad:

Loose Forwards - Net Impacts Per 80 Minutes
6.55 Fainga'anuku
4 Papali'i
3.53 Kirifi
2.71 Jacobson
2.45 Segner
2.18 Lakai
2.14 Finau
2.03 Flanders
1.38 Blackadder
0.66 Lio Willie
0.63 Parker
-1.21 Gardiner
-4.06 Sititi

Backs will normally have higher impacts so LF will be somewhat skewed.

(tries + try assists + clean breaks + offloads + defenders beaten+ turnovers won + dominant tackle - turnovers conceded - missed tackles - penalties conceded - yellow cards )

Those stats tell me nothing, it also doesn't take into account the role of a specific loosie versus another within the same team.

What it tells me is that Wallace Sititi has been making a lot of mistakes. In fact he has the lowest tackle percentage of any loose forward in SRP at 65%.

I feel the impact stat is far too broad tough. Breaking it down would be better.

Well we all feel differently about things.

Sititi has hardly played, and I'm sure the large number of missed tackles against the Drua will be skewing his stats.

I think for the most part, NZ teams play similarly, so generally speaking you are able to compare specific stats (will be small variation from differing players roles, but I doubt this would be huge) plus I am sure the coaches have access to far more detailed ones to drill down into the player specifics that they are looking at anyway.

From a matter of depth I think its interesting looking at a Net Impacts 23:

Starters
1. Tamaiti Williams
2. George Bell
3. Pasilio Tosi	
4. Tupou Vaa'i
5. Tahlor Cahill
6. Anton Segner
7. Dalton Papali'i
8. Peter Lakai
9. Cameron Roigard
10. Damian Mckenzie
11. Caleb Clarke
12. Timoci Tavatavanawai
13. Quinn Tupaea
14. Dan Sinkinson
15. Will Jordan

Impact
16. Asafo Aumua
17. Josh Fusitua
18. Siale Lauaki
19. Josh Lord
20. Luke Jacobson ( you can argue Kirifi but he covers only 1 position )
21. Noah Hotham
22. Callum Harkin
23.Leicester Faingaanuku

Some interesting bolters. Not who I would pick. However I wouldn't actually complain about a selection like this - just knit pick.

@brodean said in Boks tour squad:

Loose Forwards - Net Impacts Per 80 Minutes
6.55 Fainga'anuku
4 Papali'i
3.53 Kirifi
2.71 Jacobson
2.45 Segner
2.18 Lakai
2.14 Finau
2.03 Flanders
1.38 Blackadder
0.66 Lio Willie
0.63 Parker
-1.21 Gardiner
-4.06 Sititi

Backs will normally have higher impacts so LF will be somewhat skewed.

(tries + try assists + clean breaks + offloads + defenders beaten+ turnovers won + dominant tackle - turnovers conceded - missed tackles - penalties conceded - yellow cards )

Player with highest net impacts is Tavatavanawai 8.73.

So a missed tackle is the same as a yellow card? Fineanganofo's 14 tries are worth the same as Jim Tavatavanawai beating 14 players over two games without erally going anywhere?

@reprobate yet he has never been employed that way. There is always a perception that someone will always be better without any other reason than he's better some other way

@reprobate said in Boks tour squad:

@brodean said in Boks tour squad:

Loose Forwards - Net Impacts Per 80 Minutes
6.55 Fainga'anuku
4 Papali'i
3.53 Kirifi
2.71 Jacobson
2.45 Segner
2.18 Lakai
2.14 Finau
2.03 Flanders
1.38 Blackadder
0.66 Lio Willie
0.63 Parker
-1.21 Gardiner
-4.06 Sititi

Backs will normally have higher impacts so LF will be somewhat skewed.

(tries + try assists + clean breaks + offloads + defenders beaten+ turnovers won + dominant tackle - turnovers conceded - missed tackles - penalties conceded - yellow cards )

Player with highest net impacts is Tavatavanawai 8.73.

So a missed tackle is the same as a yellow card? Fineanganofo's 14 tries are worth the same as Jim Tavatavanawai beating 14 players over two games without erally going anywhere?

Well you can suggest some weights to the metrics if you like and I can feed them in.

A bunch of wingers tries are run ins. Yes Fineanganofo has 14 tries but he's also benefited from a team in hot form.

You don't think Tavatavanawai goes anywhere?

Metres per run
4.6 Tavatavanawai
4.6 Tupaea
3.6 Havili
3.4 Taele
2.9 Barrett
2.1 Ahki

Clean Breaks
9 Tupaea
8 Tavatavanawai
4 Barrett
1 Taele
1 Havili
0 Ahki

Offloads
15 Tavatavanawai
11 Barrett
9 Tupaea
9 Havili
5 Taele
4 Ahki

Turnovers Won
12 Tavatavanawai ( Only McReight as more. )
11 Tupaea
3 Barrett
3 Havili
3 Taele
1 Ahki

Dominant Tackles
8 Barrett
6 Tavatavanawai
5 Tupaea
5 Taele
2 Havili
1 Ahki

Guy is more than just defenders beaten.

I think it would be pretty interesting having 2 turnover guys in the midfield like Tavatavanawai and Tupaea then letting loose forwards focus more on defense and dominating collisions. Anyway I'd still go with JB at 12 personally.

That said I think Tavatavanawai is a good guy to have in the squad.

@brodean interesting Tangitau isn't there given he seems to have had a number of longer runs.

@frugby Totally agree about Harkin he is a good player operating in a good system with good players around him. You want that to be the case all the way from the Hutt Valley Under 9’s to the All Blacks.

@brodean Don't get me wrong, I like Tavatavanawai a lot and would pick him in the squad at a minimum - but he can go on a run for 3m and beat 3 defenders. If Tangitau beats three guys it's likely to be 2 tries.
If you do play a guy like that, then you need a game plan to use his strengths, not just stick him on the bench and bring him on at 60 minutes to play the Jordie role which he isn't the guy for.

@taniwharugby said in Boks tour squad:

@brodean interesting Tangitau isn't there given he seems to have had a number of longer runs.

#midfilders

@Kiwiwomble well was mention of 'wingers' in the same post.

Think the 44-man squad will look something like this...

Hookers (4) - Codie Taylor, Samisoni Taukei'aho, Asafo Aumua, George Bell
Props (7) - Ethan de Groot, Xavier Numia, Ofa Tu'ungafasi, George Bower, Fletcher Newell, Pasilio Tosi, Tyrel Lomax
Locks (6) - Scott Barrett, Tupou Vaa'i, Josh Lord, Sam Darry, Fabian Holland, Fiti Sa
Loose forwards (8) - Ardie Savea, Luke Jacobson, Peter Lakai, Wallace Sititi, Simon Parker, Dom Gardiner, Samipeni Finau, Lucas Casey
Halfbacks (4) - Cam Roigard, Cortez Ratima, Noah Hotham, Finlay Christie
First fives (4) - Damian McKenzie, Ruben Love, Beauden Barrett, Callum Harkin
Centres (5) - Jordie Barrett, Quinn Tupaea, Anton Lienert-Brown, Rieko Ioane, Billy Proctor
Outside backs (6) - Will Jordan, Caleb Clarke, Emoni Narawa, Leicester Fainga'anuku, Isaac Hutchinson, Chay Fihaki

@Mr-Fish said in Boks tour squad:

Think the 44-man squad will look something like this...

Hookers (4) - Codie Taylor, Samisoni Taukei'aho, Asafo Aumua, George Bell
Props (7) - Ethan de Groot, Xavier Numia, Ofa Tu'ungafasi, George Bower, Fletcher Newell, Pasilio Tosi, Tyrel Lomax
Locks (6) - Scott Barrett, Tupou Vaa'i, Josh Lord, Sam Darry, Fabian Holland, Fiti Sa
Loose forwards (8) - Ardie Savea, Luke Jacobson, Peter Lakai, Wallace Sititi, Simon Parker, Dom Gardiner, Samipeni Finau, Lucas Casey
Halfbacks (4) - Cam Roigard, Cortez Ratima, Noah Hotham, Finlay Christie
First fives (4) - Damian McKenzie, Ruben Love, Beauden Barrett, Callum Harkin
Centres (5) - Jordie Barrett, Quinn Tupaea, Anton Lienert-Brown, Rieko Ioane, Billy Proctor
Outside backs (6) - Will Jordan, Caleb Clarke, Emoni Narawa, Leicester Fainga'anuku, Isaac Hutchinson, Chay Fihaki

Really good. Only changes I would make are Preston or roe instead of Christie. Im not sure Hutchinson is there. And is ALB there

Bit tough on Ollie Norris and Leroy Carter if that is the picks. I think Ofa is yesterday's man. Wish Roe was not leaving as he seems next best behind Roigard currently.
Josh Beehre, Tevita Mafileo, Anton Segner, Josh Jacomb, Rieko Ioane might all have a case for a trip

@DurryMexted said in Boks tour squad:

@Mr-Fish said in Boks tour squad:

Think the 44-man squad will look something like this...

Hookers (4) - Codie Taylor, Samisoni Taukei'aho, Asafo Aumua, George Bell
Props (7) - Ethan de Groot, Xavier Numia, Ofa Tu'ungafasi, George Bower, Fletcher Newell, Pasilio Tosi, Tyrel Lomax
Locks (6) - Scott Barrett, Tupou Vaa'i, Josh Lord, Sam Darry, Fabian Holland, Fiti Sa
Loose forwards (8) - Ardie Savea, Luke Jacobson, Peter Lakai, Wallace Sititi, Simon Parker, Dom Gardiner, Samipeni Finau, Lucas Casey
Halfbacks (4) - Cam Roigard, Cortez Ratima, Noah Hotham, Finlay Christie
First fives (4) - Damian McKenzie, Ruben Love, Beauden Barrett, Callum Harkin
Centres (5) - Jordie Barrett, Quinn Tupaea, Anton Lienert-Brown, Rieko Ioane, Billy Proctor
Outside backs (6) - Will Jordan, Caleb Clarke, Emoni Narawa, Leicester Fainga'anuku, Isaac Hutchinson, Chay Fihaki

Really good. Only changes I would make are Preston or roe instead of Christie. Im not sure Hutchinson is there. And is ALB there

I don't think Roe or Preston are long-term options. Neither is Christie but he's been around the squad before and he'd do fine playing 20-odd minutes off the pine in the mid-week fixtures if needed. Basically we're still waiting on a new promising halfback (likely Pledger) and I don't love throwing caps at guys who aren't really deserving of a call-up just because of injuries.

ALB has been playing pretty well under Rennie in Japan and I'm not sure there are any other midfielders banging the door down. Maybe a Rona or Taele would be worth a go.

@ARHS said in Boks tour squad:

Bit tough on Ollie Norris and Leroy Carter if that is the picks. I think Ofa is yesterday's man. Wish Roe was not leaving as he seems next best behind Roigard currently.
Josh Beehre, Tevita Mafileo, Anton Segner, Josh Jacomb, Rieko Ioane might all have a case for a trip

Opted for Sa over Beehre but given Vaa'i is quite likely going to be playing on the flank you could drop another loosie and bring both along. Norris v Tu'ungafasi v Bower v Lauaki could be interesting. I like Norris but not sure they'd take both him and Numia. Ioane is in there in the midfield. Carter just doesn't have the high ball game but given he's potentially a midfield option off the pine he could definitely still be involved. Segner is competing with Savea, Lakai and Jacobson and I don't think he's a better option in any position than that trio.

Only selecting seven props would mean one of them doubling up in the week of the final warm-up so perhaps one of the outside backs would make way for another prop.

Alb and beauden Barrett I would not pick aswell as tuungafasi
I would like to see Josh jacomb and also tevita Tavatavanawai and mafilio

Props: Add Norris remove Ofa. Add another TH in George Dyer or Mafileo
Locks: Add Patty instead of Sa
Loosies: Gardiner out and Flanders in even though he is leaving
9: Take 3 and leave Christie
Midfield: Leave ALB and take Timoci
Outsides: Take Fehi instead of Chay even though he is leaving.

How is Norris' scrummaging? That was what he had to work on if I recall correctly..

@nostrildamus said in Boks tour squad:

How is Norris' scrummaging? That was what he had to work on if I recall correctly..

Better now than it was a couple of years ago but still slightly below where'd you want it to be for a Test prop.

@family-man said in Boks tour squad:

tevita Tavatavanawai

Jim's slimmer brother

@Mr-Fish Competition is Bower and Canes Prop. I think he has the most upside of the 3 but I would pick Bower as the 3rd prop as he is a fairly solid scrumager and very experienced. Those 2 battle it out on the SA tour to be on the bench behind Landers prop.

@Rugbyman said in Boks tour squad:

@Mr-Fish Competition is Bower and Canes Prop. I think he has the most upside of the 3 but I would pick Bower as the 3rd prop as he is a fairly solid scrumager and very experienced. Those 2 battle it out on the SA tour to be on the bench behind Landers prop.

I imagine at least one prop who can play both sides of the scrum will be selected for the tour to allow for more flexibility with the mid-week teams. Tu'ungafasi and Mafileo are the two that come to mind.

@nostrildamus said in Boks tour squad:

How is Norris' scrummaging? That was what he had to work on if I recall correctly..

Not good enough to take on Boks tightheads.