@george33 said in Boks tour squad:
@Canes4life that's definitely my opinion.
Just aren't doing it for me , just my take on it .
Very congested area.
You're allowed your opinion mate, I just thought you heard something.
@Canes4life No not at all .
@Chris said in Boks tour squad:
Gardiner could be looked at
I wouldn't be adverse to this if he consistently plays with the form.he's starting to show this season. Play dominating rugby in the finals and he should be included in the squad.
I heard a fairly reliable source say both Kirifi and Lakai are going to have to step up their game to make the squad.
@Canes4life said in Boks tour squad:
@Chris said in Boks tour squad:
@Canes4life said in Boks tour squad:
@Chris said in Boks tour squad:
Those teams speculated on further up the thread look a lot like rinse and repeat from the last 3 years.
I am not sure the results are going to be much better with the same players.We have no choice to go with similar players to previous years because all the talent playing well in Super Rugby right now are leaving because they weren't selected in previous seasons.
Aside from Frizzell and Mo'unga, who would you have in there?
Yeah a major problem your side is close to what I would like to see.
Mounga for Harkin
Frizell for Jacobsen
Gardiner could be looked at
Probably not a lot else when I look.Really there are too many players not up to it we have to select which is my worry.
The SA tour could be brutal as far as results go.If Mo'unga is available this might be an unpopular opinion, but I'd take Harkin over BB.
If the ultimate goal is to prepare our players for the WC next year, then why take someone who's going to be even further over the hill in 18 months time.
Hmmm, Gardiner isn't imposing enough for an AB eight. Definitely the key ingredient this AB side is missing.
I wouldn't mind Harkin over BB.
Gardiner a 6 not really an 8, he throws his body around high work rate, Worth a look for a physical presence.
This thread is also very funny because it is everyone agreeing on 90% players, and then favouring their own franchise players for the rest.
@antipodean said in Boks tour squad:
I heard a fairly reliable source say both Kirifi and Lakai are going to have to step up their game to make the squad.
George as a source doesn't count.
@canefan said in Boks tour squad:
@Grooter said in Boks tour squad:
@frugby I have a Sixth sense Perofeta's time in nz rugby is drawing to a close, in which event Callum Harkin will have his phone nearby
Perofeta either never kicked on, or wasn't given much opportunity, or both. Time to look at Harkin, who has been quietly brilliant for the Canes this season
Yep mate, I not sure I see the point of Perofeta going, I like the idea of a Harkin, but not sure he has got ability to step up. I would think Mounga will get a spot, But will be interesting to see who makes squad.
@Canes4life said in Boks tour squad:
@antipodean said in Boks tour squad:
I heard a fairly reliable source say both Kirifi and Lakai are going to have to step up their game to make the squad.
Care to share who the source is? Pretty odd statement considering they've both been apart of the best performing loose trio in the comp.
Even harsher on Lakai who's arguably been the most consistent loose forward from the very beginning of the season.
I call bullshit considering we aren't flush with options right now.
Source was George.
@frugby said in Boks tour squad:
This thread is also very funny because it is everyone agreeing on 90% players, and then favouring their own franchise players for the rest.
except probably the highlanders fans....not sure we're advocating for many outside the obvious like Tangitau
@antipodean said in Boks tour squad:
@Canes4life said in Boks tour squad:
@antipodean said in Boks tour squad:
I heard a fairly reliable source say both Kirifi and Lakai are going to have to step up their game to make the squad.
Care to share who the source is? Pretty odd statement considering they've both been apart of the best performing loose trio in the comp.
Even harsher on Lakai who's arguably been the most consistent loose forward from the very beginning of the season.
I call bullshit considering we aren't flush with options right now.
Source was George.
George was source
@Dan54 said in Boks tour squad:
@canefan said in Boks tour squad:
@Grooter said in Boks tour squad:
@frugby I have a Sixth sense Perofeta's time in nz rugby is drawing to a close, in which event Callum Harkin will have his phone nearby
Perofeta either never kicked on, or wasn't given much opportunity, or both. Time to look at Harkin, who has been quietly brilliant for the Canes this season
Yep mate, I not sure I see the point of Perofeta going, I like the idea of a Harkin, but not sure he has got ability to step up. I would think Mounga will get a spot, But will be interesting to see who makes squad.
Only one way to find out...
@ploughboy said in Boks tour squad:
would make more sense using Iose as a hybrid than LF
I dunno about that. The way the game is played these days there are a shitload of backs who are pretty solid breakdown players, but there are not many forwards who could position and defend effectively at centre or wing.
@reprobate said in Boks tour squad:
@ploughboy said in Boks tour squad:
would make more sense using Iose as a hybrid than LF
I dunno about that. The way the game is played these days there are a shitload of backs who are pretty solid breakdown players, but there are not many forwards who could position and defend effectively at centre or wing.
Iose is probably one of the loosies in NZ that wouldn't look out of place in the centres or on the wing if required. Oli Mathis, Lakai and Savea are others. The latter two played in the backs when they were at college so wouldn't be too far out the gate.
Iose's call for the ball on Saturday against the Crusaders, the speed to beat his opposite and then the banana kick over the top for Roigard's try was top notch.
@Canes4life said in Boks tour squad:
@reprobate said in Boks tour squad:
@ploughboy said in Boks tour squad:
would make more sense using Iose as a hybrid than LF
I dunno about that. The way the game is played these days there are a shitload of backs who are pretty solid breakdown players, but there are not many forwards who could position and defend effectively at centre or wing.
Iose is probably one of the loosies in NZ that wouldn't look out of place in the centres or on the wing if required. Oli Mathis, Lakai and Savea are others. The latter two played in the backs when they were at college so wouldn't be too far out the gate.
Iose's call for the ball on Saturday against the Crusaders, the speed to beat his opposite and then the banana kick over the top for Roigard's try was top notch.
And how is his positioning in the back field? His reading of when to come in and when to stay out? I think there are plenty of forwards who can look good attacking against backs, but not many at all who can look good defending against quality backs in space.
If you think Jordan, Fineanganofo, Clarke, Tangitau would rip them apart in a bit of space, or a good kicking 10 would make them look silly with 50-22s etc, then they really shouldn't be there - there's nowhere to hide in the open spaces.
@reprobate said in Boks tour squad:
@ploughboy said in Boks tour squad:
would make more sense using Iose as a hybrid than LF
I dunno about that. The way the game is played these days there are a shitload of backs who are pretty solid breakdown players, but there are not many forwards who could position and defend effectively at centre or wing.
considering LF defensive issues I would still back Iose.
@ploughboy said in Boks tour squad:
will add I don't believe either player ranks high enough in there core role to be really considered for the bench
Oh I wouldn't pick LF in midfield, defense and ball security are not good enough. I just think you can hide individual deficiencies more in the pack than for someone like Iose in the backs. You can have a player who plays the 'Savea' role (for want of a better word) in a pack - sure it changes the workload for others, but it doesn't directly leave gaps for tries scored like deliberately giving the opposition backline a mismatch does.
If we want someone to play that LF role, Tavatavanawai would seem a far better option to me. He's a similar power runner, but he's definitely better over the ball, he definitely doesn't lose possession anywhere near as much, and he definitely doesn't miss as many tackles.
@reprobate said in Boks tour squad:
@ploughboy said in Boks tour squad:
will add I don't believe either player ranks high enough in there core role to be really considered for the bench
Oh I wouldn't pick LF in midfield, defense and ball security are not good enough. I just think you can hide individual deficiencies more in the pack than for someone like Iose in the backs. You can have a player who plays the 'Savea' role (for want of a better word) in a pack - sure it changes the workload for others, but it doesn't directly leave gaps for tries scored like deliberately giving the opposition backline a mismatch does.
If we want someone to play that LF role, Tavatavanawai would seem a far better option to me. He's a similar power runner, but he's definitely better over the ball, he definitely doesn't lose possession anywhere near as much, and he definitely doesn't miss as many tackles.
LF has improved this year in defense and ball security quite a lot.
Loose Forwards - Net Impacts Per 80 Minutes
6.55 Fainga'anuku
4 Papali'i
3.53 Kirifi
2.71 Jacobson
2.45 Segner
2.18 Lakai
2.14 Finau
2.03 Flanders
1.38 Blackadder
0.66 Lio Willie
0.63 Parker
-1.21 Gardiner
-4.06 Sititi
Backs will normally have higher impacts so LF will be somewhat skewed.
(tries + try assists + clean breaks + offloads + defenders beaten+ turnovers won + dominant tackle - turnovers conceded - missed tackles - penalties conceded - yellow cards )
Player with highest net impacts is Tavatavanawai 8.73.
@brodean said in Boks tour squad:
Loose Forwards - Net Impacts Per 80 Minutes
6.55 Fainga'anuku
4 Papali'i
3.53 Kirifi
2.71 Jacobson
2.45 Segner
2.18 Lakai
2.14 Finau
2.03 Flanders
1.38 Blackadder
0.66 Lio Willie
0.63 Parker
-1.21 Gardiner
-4.06 SititiBacks will normally have higher impacts so LF will be somewhat skewed.
(tries + try assists + clean breaks + offloads + defenders beaten+ turnovers won + dominant tackle - turnovers conceded - missed tackles - penalties conceded - yellow cards )
Those stats tell me nothing, it also doesn't take into account the role of a specific loosie versus another within the same team.
@Canes4life said in Boks tour squad:
@brodean said in Boks tour squad:
Loose Forwards - Net Impacts Per 80 Minutes
6.55 Fainga'anuku
4 Papali'i
3.53 Kirifi
2.71 Jacobson
2.45 Segner
2.18 Lakai
2.14 Finau
2.03 Flanders
1.38 Blackadder
0.66 Lio Willie
0.63 Parker
-1.21 Gardiner
-4.06 SititiBacks will normally have higher impacts so LF will be somewhat skewed.
(tries + try assists + clean breaks + offloads + defenders beaten+ turnovers won + dominant tackle - turnovers conceded - missed tackles - penalties conceded - yellow cards )
Those stats tell me nothing, it also doesn't take into account the role of a specific loosie versus another within the same team.
What it tells me is that Wallace Sititi has been making a lot of mistakes. In fact he has the lowest tackle percentage of any loose forward in SRP at 65%.
Also I think its fairly reflective of some player stereotypes on this forum eg Parker and Blackadder don't offer a lot in terms of high impact plays.
@brodean said in Boks tour squad:
@Canes4life said in Boks tour squad:
@brodean said in Boks tour squad:
Loose Forwards - Net Impacts Per 80 Minutes
6.55 Fainga'anuku
4 Papali'i
3.53 Kirifi
2.71 Jacobson
2.45 Segner
2.18 Lakai
2.14 Finau
2.03 Flanders
1.38 Blackadder
0.66 Lio Willie
0.63 Parker
-1.21 Gardiner
-4.06 SititiBacks will normally have higher impacts so LF will be somewhat skewed.
(tries + try assists + clean breaks + offloads + defenders beaten+ turnovers won + dominant tackle - turnovers conceded - missed tackles - penalties conceded - yellow cards )
Those stats tell me nothing, it also doesn't take into account the role of a specific loosie versus another within the same team.
What it tells me is that Wallace Sititi has been making a lot of mistakes. In fact he has the lowest tackle percentage of any loose forward in SRP at 65%.
I feel the impact stat is far too broad tough. Breaking it down would be better.
@Canes4life how would you break it down, i like that at a high level, tells me even if sititi near the top of some good stat....his bad stats are outweighing things....and whilst i dont mind the idea of being very good at something but not all.....there is a difference between not being the best and something and being bad at them
@Canes4life said in Boks tour squad:
@brodean said in Boks tour squad:
@Canes4life said in Boks tour squad:
@brodean said in Boks tour squad:
Loose Forwards - Net Impacts Per 80 Minutes
6.55 Fainga'anuku
4 Papali'i
3.53 Kirifi
2.71 Jacobson
2.45 Segner
2.18 Lakai
2.14 Finau
2.03 Flanders
1.38 Blackadder
0.66 Lio Willie
0.63 Parker
-1.21 Gardiner
-4.06 SititiBacks will normally have higher impacts so LF will be somewhat skewed.
(tries + try assists + clean breaks + offloads + defenders beaten+ turnovers won + dominant tackle - turnovers conceded - missed tackles - penalties conceded - yellow cards )
Those stats tell me nothing, it also doesn't take into account the role of a specific loosie versus another within the same team.
What it tells me is that Wallace Sititi has been making a lot of mistakes. In fact he has the lowest tackle percentage of any loose forward in SRP at 65%.
I feel the impact stat is far too broad tough. Breaking it down would be better.
@Canes4life said in Boks tour squad:
@brodean said in Boks tour squad:
@Canes4life said in Boks tour squad:
@brodean said in Boks tour squad:
Loose Forwards - Net Impacts Per 80 Minutes
6.55 Fainga'anuku
4 Papali'i
3.53 Kirifi
2.71 Jacobson
2.45 Segner
2.18 Lakai
2.14 Finau
2.03 Flanders
1.38 Blackadder
0.66 Lio Willie
0.63 Parker
-1.21 Gardiner
-4.06 SititiBacks will normally have higher impacts so LF will be somewhat skewed.
(tries + try assists + clean breaks + offloads + defenders beaten+ turnovers won + dominant tackle - turnovers conceded - missed tackles - penalties conceded - yellow cards )
Those stats tell me nothing, it also doesn't take into account the role of a specific loosie versus another within the same team.
What it tells me is that Wallace Sititi has been making a lot of mistakes. In fact he has the lowest tackle percentage of any loose forward in SRP at 65%.
I feel the impact stat is far too broad tough. Breaking it down would be better.
Well we all feel differently about things.
Sititi has hardly played, and I'm sure the large number of missed tackles against the Drua will be skewing his stats.
I think for the most part, NZ teams play similarly, so generally speaking you are able to compare specific stats (will be small variation from differing players roles, but I doubt this would be huge) plus I am sure the coaches have access to far more detailed ones to drill down into the player specifics that they are looking at anyway.
From a matter of depth I think its interesting looking at a Net Impacts 23:
Starters
1. Tamaiti Williams
2. George Bell
3. Pasilio Tosi
4. Tupou Vaa'i
5. Tahlor Cahill
6. Anton Segner
7. Dalton Papali'i
8. Peter Lakai
9. Cameron Roigard
10. Damian Mckenzie
11. Caleb Clarke
12. Timoci Tavatavanawai
13. Quinn Tupaea
14. Dan Sinkinson
15. Will Jordan
Impact
16. Asafo Aumua
17. Josh Fusitua
18. Siale Lauaki
19. Josh Lord
20. Luke Jacobson ( you can argue Kirifi but he covers only 1 position )
21. Noah Hotham
22. Callum Harkin
23.Leicester Faingaanuku
Some interesting bolters. Not who I would pick. However I wouldn't actually complain about a selection like this - just knit pick.
@brodean said in Boks tour squad:
Loose Forwards - Net Impacts Per 80 Minutes
6.55 Fainga'anuku
4 Papali'i
3.53 Kirifi
2.71 Jacobson
2.45 Segner
2.18 Lakai
2.14 Finau
2.03 Flanders
1.38 Blackadder
0.66 Lio Willie
0.63 Parker
-1.21 Gardiner
-4.06 SititiBacks will normally have higher impacts so LF will be somewhat skewed.
(tries + try assists + clean breaks + offloads + defenders beaten+ turnovers won + dominant tackle - turnovers conceded - missed tackles - penalties conceded - yellow cards )
Player with highest net impacts is Tavatavanawai 8.73.
So a missed tackle is the same as a yellow card? Fineanganofo's 14 tries are worth the same as Jim Tavatavanawai beating 14 players over two games without erally going anywhere?
@reprobate yet he has never been employed that way. There is always a perception that someone will always be better without any other reason than he's better some other way
@reprobate said in Boks tour squad:
@brodean said in Boks tour squad:
Loose Forwards - Net Impacts Per 80 Minutes
6.55 Fainga'anuku
4 Papali'i
3.53 Kirifi
2.71 Jacobson
2.45 Segner
2.18 Lakai
2.14 Finau
2.03 Flanders
1.38 Blackadder
0.66 Lio Willie
0.63 Parker
-1.21 Gardiner
-4.06 SititiBacks will normally have higher impacts so LF will be somewhat skewed.
(tries + try assists + clean breaks + offloads + defenders beaten+ turnovers won + dominant tackle - turnovers conceded - missed tackles - penalties conceded - yellow cards )
Player with highest net impacts is Tavatavanawai 8.73.
So a missed tackle is the same as a yellow card? Fineanganofo's 14 tries are worth the same as Jim Tavatavanawai beating 14 players over two games without erally going anywhere?
Well you can suggest some weights to the metrics if you like and I can feed them in.
A bunch of wingers tries are run ins. Yes Fineanganofo has 14 tries but he's also benefited from a team in hot form.
You don't think Tavatavanawai goes anywhere?
Metres per run
4.6 Tavatavanawai
4.6 Tupaea
3.6 Havili
3.4 Taele
2.9 Barrett
2.1 Ahki
Clean Breaks
9 Tupaea
8 Tavatavanawai
4 Barrett
1 Taele
1 Havili
0 Ahki
Offloads
15 Tavatavanawai
11 Barrett
9 Tupaea
9 Havili
5 Taele
4 Ahki
Turnovers Won
12 Tavatavanawai ( Only McReight as more. )
11 Tupaea
3 Barrett
3 Havili
3 Taele
1 Ahki
Dominant Tackles
8 Barrett
6 Tavatavanawai
5 Tupaea
5 Taele
2 Havili
1 Ahki
Guy is more than just defenders beaten.
I think it would be pretty interesting having 2 turnover guys in the midfield like Tavatavanawai and Tupaea then letting loose forwards focus more on defense and dominating collisions. Anyway I'd still go with JB at 12 personally.
That said I think Tavatavanawai is a good guy to have in the squad.
@brodean Don't get me wrong, I like Tavatavanawai a lot and would pick him in the squad at a minimum - but he can go on a run for 3m and beat 3 defenders. If Tangitau beats three guys it's likely to be 2 tries.
If you do play a guy like that, then you need a game plan to use his strengths, not just stick him on the bench and bring him on at 60 minutes to play the Jordie role which he isn't the guy for.
@taniwharugby said in Boks tour squad:
@brodean interesting Tangitau isn't there given he seems to have had a number of longer runs.
#midfilders
@Kiwiwomble well was mention of 'wingers' in the same post.
Think the 44-man squad will look something like this...
Hookers (4) - Codie Taylor, Samisoni Taukei'aho, Asafo Aumua, George Bell
Props (7) - Ethan de Groot, Xavier Numia, Ofa Tu'ungafasi, George Bower, Fletcher Newell, Pasilio Tosi, Tyrel Lomax
Locks (6) - Scott Barrett, Tupou Vaa'i, Josh Lord, Sam Darry, Fabian Holland, Fiti Sa
Loose forwards (8) - Ardie Savea, Luke Jacobson, Peter Lakai, Wallace Sititi, Simon Parker, Dom Gardiner, Samipeni Finau, Lucas Casey
Halfbacks (4) - Cam Roigard, Cortez Ratima, Noah Hotham, Finlay Christie
First fives (4) - Damian McKenzie, Ruben Love, Beauden Barrett, Callum Harkin
Centres (5) - Jordie Barrett, Quinn Tupaea, Anton Lienert-Brown, Rieko Ioane, Billy Proctor
Outside backs (6) - Will Jordan, Caleb Clarke, Emoni Narawa, Leicester Fainga'anuku, Isaac Hutchinson, Chay Fihaki
@Mr-Fish said in Boks tour squad:
Think the 44-man squad will look something like this...
Hookers (4) - Codie Taylor, Samisoni Taukei'aho, Asafo Aumua, George Bell
Props (7) - Ethan de Groot, Xavier Numia, Ofa Tu'ungafasi, George Bower, Fletcher Newell, Pasilio Tosi, Tyrel Lomax
Locks (6) - Scott Barrett, Tupou Vaa'i, Josh Lord, Sam Darry, Fabian Holland, Fiti Sa
Loose forwards (8) - Ardie Savea, Luke Jacobson, Peter Lakai, Wallace Sititi, Simon Parker, Dom Gardiner, Samipeni Finau, Lucas Casey
Halfbacks (4) - Cam Roigard, Cortez Ratima, Noah Hotham, Finlay Christie
First fives (4) - Damian McKenzie, Ruben Love, Beauden Barrett, Callum Harkin
Centres (5) - Jordie Barrett, Quinn Tupaea, Anton Lienert-Brown, Rieko Ioane, Billy Proctor
Outside backs (6) - Will Jordan, Caleb Clarke, Emoni Narawa, Leicester Fainga'anuku, Isaac Hutchinson, Chay Fihaki
Really good. Only changes I would make are Preston or roe instead of Christie. Im not sure Hutchinson is there. And is ALB there